The Mood

[andover red]

I would imagine, as a recently promoted team after 23 years in the wilderness, most players who agree to join us, will have insisted on break clauses in their contracts should we be relegated. The ability to retain star players, and the ability to recruit quality replacements will depend upon the owner/management having decent negotiating skills, and the ability to convince players not to exercise their option to break.

You may be correct, but I don't think it's a given that we'd struggle so badly to retain players. Not many of them came here as 'stars'. MGW, Taiwo and Murillo are probably the most valuable and all we're pretty unproven when they signed.

The bigger issue may be if we were stupid and naive enough to offer contracts without relegation wage reductions. That could force our hand.

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[Chappers85]

So assuming we go down and all the players out of contract go, loanees leave and players out on loan return (with the exception of Mangala as that basically seems permanent), we'll lose:

Hennessey
Shelvey
Tavares
McKenna
Montiel
Felipe
Boly
Aina
Mbe Soh
Kouyate
Mangala
Reyna
Bowler
Wood
Origi
Ribeiro

Leaving the following. The ones crossed out out are the ones I'd imagine we'd want to get rid of (but might not be able to), and those in italics are the ones that we'd struggle to keep as they'd try and force a move or be in high demand.

GK
Sels
Turner
Vlach

Defence
Williams
Niakhate
Worrall
Toffollo
Omo
Murillo

Midfielders
Sangare
MGW
Dominguez
Yates
Danilo
Aguilera
O'Brien

Forwards
Awoniyi
CHO
Elanga
Dennis
Mighten

Personally, I'd keep Worrall if we went down - especially as we'd lose a lot of defenders - but I think it's probably the end of the road for him. I would imagine we would have to sell Murillo, MGW and Awoniyi, the others we might be able to keep hold of or we just wouldn't get enough money to justify the sales (would anyone pay what we spent on Sangare or Danilo?). Like others have said though, who knows what clauses they have in their contracts. So from those 3 I would think £100m maximum and probably at least £80m. So if the club are able to reinvest that we'd pretty much need a new defence, a playmaker or 2, and a couple of strikers. If Nuno stayed on, I think we'd be alright and would be challenging for automatic. If he left, then who knows? It could all go a bit David Platt. But we'll be in a stronger position than we were at at the beginning of 21/22 season.

 

[andover red]

The Cooper scenario is just on of many self-destructive ones created by the top brass, alongside those mentioned such as FFP/PSR breeching and wild, disconnected recruitment.

Once Cooper had got us up, no-one at the club made his job easy. From dumping loads of players on him who didn't offer any real type of team balance, to constantly looking to replace him etc, it was a miracle he actually stuck around so long.

That's at least what we can take away from our time in the Prem, a genuine connection with a great manager and some great players under him. I can't see it being replicated any time soon sadly

I'm not surprised that's your perspective on events, but it's quite easy to see things through a different and less opinionated lens.

'Dumping loads of players on him' is one way to look at things, but the alternative is not investing and accepting certain relegation, which many promoted clubs are accused of.

Similarly, 'constantly looking to replace him' could have alternatively been getting rid after the Leicester 4-0 and we were actually widely praised for being one of the only clubs not to sack the manager at the first sign of trouble.

I wouldn't expect the Cooper connection to be replicated. It's unusual and not often repeated. Much better to celebrate what it was rather than mourn its loss forever more.

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[Robertson]

So assuming we go down and all the players out of contract go, loanees leave and players out on loan return (with the exception of Mangala as that basically seems permanent), we'll lose:
Hennessey
Shelvey
Tavares
McKenna
Montiel
Felipe
Boly
Aina
Mbe Soh
Kouyate
Mangala
Reyna
Bowler
Wood
Origi
Ribeiro

Leaving the following. The ones crossed out out are the ones I'd imagine we'd want to get rid of (but might not be able to), and those in italics are the ones that we'd struggle to keep as they'd try and force a move or be in high demand.

GK
Sels
Turner
Vlach

Defence
Williams
Niakhate
Worrall
Toffollo
Omo
Murillo

Midfielders
Sangare
MGW
Dominguez
Yates
Danilo
Aguilera
O'Brien

Forwards
Awoniyi
CHO
Elanga
Dennis
Mighten

Personally, I'd keep Worrall if we went down - especially as we'd lose a lot of defenders - but I think it's probably the end of the road for him. I would imagine we would have to sell Murillo, MGW and Awoniyi, the others we might be able to keep hold of or we just wouldn't get enough money to justify the sales (would anyone pay what we spent on Sangare or Danilo?). Like others have said though, who knows what clauses they have in their contracts. So from those 3 I would think £100m maximum and probably at least £80m. So if the club are able to reinvest that we'd pretty much need a new defence, a playmaker or 2, and a couple of strikers. If Nuno stayed on, I think we'd be alright and would be challenging for automatic. If he left, then who knows? It could all go a bit David Platt. But we'll be in a stronger position than we were at at the beginning of 21/22 season.

I think Bowler is likely to be under contract next season. As possibly are Hwang, Laryea, Richards and Panzo, for what it's worth.

Hwang can get lost, but one or two of the others might yet prove useful squad members. I also wouldn't write off O'Brien in these circumstances either. Not done much wrong for me.

 

[Captain Sinister]

I'm not surprised that's your perspective on events, but it's quite easy to see things through a different and less opinionated lens.

'Dumping loads of players on him' is one way to look at things, but the alternative is not investing and accepting certain relegation, which many promoted clubs are accused of.

Similarly, 'constantly looking to replace him' could have alternatively been getting rid after the Leicester 4-0 and we were actually widely praised for being one of the only clubs not to sack the manager at the first sign of trouble.

I wouldn't expect the Cooper connection to be replicated. It's unusual and not often repeated. Much better to celebrate what it was rather than mourn its loss forever more.

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Isn't there a happy medium?
Cut you coat according to your FFP cloth.

 

[weejockmcplop]

Isn't there a happy medium?
Cut you coat according to your FFP cloth.

TBH Cooper was still asking for more players in both August and January last season.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I'm not surprised that's your perspective on events, but it's quite easy to see things through a different and less opinionated lens.

'Dumping loads of players on him' is one way to look at things, but the alternative is not investing and accepting certain relegation, which many promoted clubs are accused of.

Similarly, 'constantly looking to replace him' could have alternatively been getting rid after the Leicester 4-0 and we were actually widely praised for being one of the only clubs not to sack the manager at the first sign of trouble.

I wouldn't expect the Cooper connection to be replicated. It's unusual and not often repeated. Much better to celebrate what it was rather than mourn its loss forever more.

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I'm not surprised that's your perspective on events either, but it's quite easy to see things through a different and less binary lens.

ONE alternative is not investing and accepting certain relegation...amongst many others, including investing sensibly and with a well laid overarching structure like Murphy did in the promotion season.

As @Captain Sinister, there is a happy medium.

And I think we all know that Cooper wasn't replaced earlier because none of EM's designer names like Nuno or Lappy wanted to come at that time.

 

[theloner]

Remember MGW last year celebrating a tackle in front of A Block last spring. More of that and we'll be fine. Keep the positive vibes flowing. We can do this as Cooper proved over two seasons. Think a poster alluded to the fact that our promotion team had a great sense of unity, we can do this again to stay up and more.

 

[Robertson]

I'm not surprised that's your perspective on events either, but it's quite easy to see things through a different and less binary lens.

ONE alternative is not investing and accepting certain relegation...amongst many others, including investing sensibly and with a well laid overarching structure like Murphy did in the promotion season.

As @Captain Sinister, there is a happy medium.

And I think we all know that Cooper wasn't replaced earlier because none of EM's designer names like Nuno or Lappy wanted to come at that time.

I think we have have invested sensibly to be honest, in terms of players we've paid transfer fees for, with the exception of Dennis, and probably Wood.

I don't dispute we've probably wasted a lot on wages for a lot of the players that have come and gone on loan or via free contracts though.

 

[Malwood]

I think we have have invested sensibly to be honest, in terms of players we've paid transfer fees for, with the exception of Dennis, and probably Wood.

I don't dispute we've probably wasted a lot on wages for a lot of the players that have come and gone on loan or via free contracts though.

I think the recruitment teams have done OK. We could sell most of the players for more than we bought.

 

[Robertson]

I think the recruitment teams have done OK. We could sell most of the players for more than we bought.

Yeah and its not always even about that either. For example we paid, what, a couple of million each for Boly and Felipe? - they might yet leave on a free. But hard to say we haven't got value for money there. Though apparently Felipe is on a big wage. Goalkeeper has been a bit of a blindspot though, lets be honest.

 

[Redemption]

I can't decide if I'm honest.

Sometimes I think if you're forced into it, as we were, you probably do over-buy and work out what you don't need and move them on soon enough, as long as you take a portfolio view.

But then, on the other hand, it sometimes seems like we were very erratic and uncoordinated, wasting both the cash and the opportunity.

If you can weave something out of both positions, I'm somewhere on that fence.

 

[andover red]

I'm not surprised that's your perspective on events either, but it's quite easy to see things through a different and less binary lens.

ONE alternative is not investing and accepting certain relegation...amongst many others, including investing sensibly and with a well laid overarching structure like Murphy did in the promotion season.

As @Captain Sinister, there is a happy medium.

And I think we all know that Cooper wasn't replaced earlier because none of EM's designer names like Nuno or Lappy wanted to come at that time.

Fair enough. But what you're describing is getting it bang on and that's just not how it works in real life.

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[Robertson]

Fair enough. But what you're describing is getting it bang on and that's just not how it works in real life.

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Yeah I sometimes think most of these arguments boil down to “stop buying shit players” which it’s impossible to disagree with, but at the same time a bit meaningless.

 

[DocForest]

Yeah I sometimes think most of these arguments boil down to “stop buying shit players” which it’s impossible to disagree with, but at the same time a bit meaningless.

.... and also completely unrealistic

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Fair enough. But what you're describing is getting it bang on and that's just not how it works in real life.

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Of course, but two things with that though:

1) I'd personally be happy just getting somewhere near the mark, like we did under Murphy.

2) Marinakis very much desires us to be a top Prem club and compete with the elite; Taylor printed that Marinakis couldn't understand why our fans were so accepting of "failure" with Cooper. So, by that extension, I'm expecting better of Marinakis & the recruitment team, as he himself demands.

Yeah I sometimes think most of these arguments boil down to “stop buying shit players” which it’s impossible to disagree with, but at the same time a bit meaningless.

But they don't. Half the time we're asking for a more cohesive, sensible approach overall E.G. Stop making last minute panic buys, stop signing designer players who clearly haven't been researched very well, go back to vetting potential players more thoroughly like Murphy clearly did, and ensure purchasing them includes basic considerations such as resale value and managerial style etc.

Sorry, but we just don't do any of that anywhere near as well as when Murphy was here. It wasn't perfect then, but it was a damn sight better. I mean, we sacked the man who bought us Awoniyi but not the one who bought us Lingard lol.

Players like Vlach shouldn't have ever got anywhere near a Prem club, nowhere remotely near it, and signing 2 keeper in one window, and neither of them being of Prem caliber is shocking. Thinking we can't achieve better than that essentially admits we're not a Prem level club.

 

[sammy the snake]

Contrary to many in media, Forest’s recruitment will cover the financial risk of relegation and allow build a little with parachute payments. Yes some Forest players don’t have the relegation clause but that’s also not unusual… contrary again to what media reports. 2 or 3 wins changes everything, we need 6 in my view starting with tomorrow

 

[Robertson]

Of course, but two things with that though:

1) I'd personally be happy just getting somewhere near the mark, like we did under Murphy.

2) Marinakis very much desires us to be a top Prem club and compete with the elite; Taylor printed that Marinakis couldn't understand why our fans were so accepting of "failure" with Cooper. So, by that extension, I'm expecting better of Marinakis & the recruitment team, as he himself demands.


But they don't. Half the time we're asking for a more cohesive, sensible approach overall E.G. Stop making last minute panic buys, stop signing designer players who clearly haven't been researched very well, go back to vetting potential players more thoroughly like Murphy clearly did, and ensure purchasing them includes basic considerations such as resale value and managerial style etc.

Sorry, but we just don't do any of that anywhere near as well as when Murphy was here. It wasn't perfect then, but it was a damn sight better. I mean, we sacked the man who bought us Awoniyi but not the one who bought us Lingard lol.

Players like Vlach shouldn't have ever got anywhere near a Prem club, nowhere remotely near it, and signing 2 keeper in one window, and neither of them being of Prem caliber is shocking. Thinking we can't achieve better than that essentially admits we're not a Prem level club.

But all of Murphy’s careful vetting etc left us with Richards and Biancone at fullback didn’t it? Maybe he was instrumental in bringing in Aurier and Lodi later on I dunno.

 

[DocForest]

Of course, but two things with that though:

1) I'd personally be happy just getting somewhere near the mark, like we did under Murphy.

2) Marinakis very much desires us to be a top Prem club and compete with the elite; Taylor printed that Marinakis couldn't understand why our fans were so accepting of "failure" with Cooper. So, by that extension, I'm expecting better of Marinakis & the recruitment team, as he himself demands.


But they don't. Half the time we're asking for a more cohesive, sensible approach overall E.G. Stop making last minute panic buys, stop signing designer players who clearly haven't been researched very well, go back to vetting potential players more thoroughly like Murphy clearly did, and ensure purchasing them includes basic considerations such as resale value and managerial style etc.

Sorry, but we just don't do any of that anywhere near as well as when Murphy was here. It wasn't perfect then, but it was a damn sight better. I mean, we sacked the man who bought us Awoniyi but not the one who bought us Lingard lol.

Players like Vlach shouldn't have ever got anywhere near a Prem club, nowhere remotely near it, and signing 2 keeper in one window, and neither of them being of Prem caliber is shocking. Thinking we can't achieve better than that essentially admits we're not a Prem level club.

I think you have a totally disjointed view of what Murphy's role at the club was Alf.
You have no idea who bought Awoniyi or Lingard to the club, none of us have.

You could just have easily have said, we sacked the man who bought Freuler, Biancone and Bowler to the club and kept the one who bought Aurier, Danilo and Murillo. That statement would have been just as wrong too.

 

[Steve B]

My mood is fine. I’m drunk again and looking forward to smashing them geordies tomorrow

 

[Steve B]

We’ve been killing ourselves to get to premier league for a quarter of a century, we’ve got to enjoy every minute of it now we’re here. And tomorrow’s game is exactly why we wanted to be here and not playing Preston away in front of 11k.

 

[DizzyBala]

You have no idea who bought Awoniyi or Lingard to the club, none of us have.

I'd imagine the guy that flew him out to Greece then had him meet Steve Cooper, aka Militadis signed Lingard.
As for who signed Awoniyi, maybe the bloke we hired that scouted the German league, that also signed Niakhite and Mangala.

I wasn't there at the time but it's a pretty good guess.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

But all of Murphy’s careful vetting etc left us with Richards and Biancone at fullback didn’t it? Maybe he was instrumental in bringing in Aurier and Lodi later on I dunno.

Like I said, it wasn't perfect.

But he did make key signings at key times for relatively minimal investment. Davies + Surridge + Cook is the best Jan transfer window we've ever had IMO, and for me our best recruitment in years was overseen by Murphy.

I think you have a totally disjointed view of what Murphy's role at the club was Alf.
You have no idea who bought Awoniyi or Lingard to the club, none of us have.

You could just have easily have said, we sacked the man who bought Freuler, Biancone and Bowler to the club and kept the one who bought Aurier, Danilo and Murillo. That statement would have been just as wrong too.

I mean, sources such as the Athletic credit Murphy/George Syrianos with Awoiniyi, who we then both sacked, and DT also stated Matildas bought Lingard to the club.

How much stock you place in these sources is down to personal choice, and fair enough if you don't share the view which I do that they're getting far more right than wrong these days. But to suggest "no idea" is simply ignorant of these sources. My views and others who share them are basing them on what is reported and what we hear.

 

[DocForest]

I'd imagine the guy that flew him out to Greece then had him meet Steve Cooper, aka Militadis signed Lingard.
As for who signed Awoniyi, maybe the bloke we hired that scouted the German league, that also signed Niakhite and Mangala.

I wasn't there at the time but it's a pretty good guess.

That's the point though. It's all heresay and guesswork and all our recruitment has been a mixed bag. Miltiades was supposedly responsible for Aurier too. Great signing but guesswork.

Did Giraldo sign off Shelvey and Wood. Heresay says so. Some would say awful signings. C**t.
Mind you did he sign off Navas, Danilo and Felipe. Those signings may have kept us in the League. Magician.

You can only judge recruitment as a collective and by the end result.
We survived last year so recruitment was ok. If we survive this year it will have probably been better than ok taking into account a potential points deduction and the fact that we have some big assets on board. If we get relegated it's not been good enough.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

That's the point though. It's all heresay and guesswork and all our recruitment has been a mixed bag. Miltiades was supposedly responsible for Aurier too. Great signing but guesswork.

Did Giraldo sign off Shelvey and Wood. Heresay says so. Some would say awful signings. C**t.
Mind you did he sign off Navas, Danilo and Felipe. Those signings may have kept us in the League. Magician.

You can only judge recruitment as a collective and by the end result.
We survived last year so recruitment was ok. If we survive this year it will have probably been better than ok taking into account a potential points deduction and the fact that we have some big assets on board. If we get relegated it's not been good enough.

I think there's enough evidence out there either side of Murphy's time at the club that the Greeks just aren't as thorough or professional when it comes to recruiting players, from Joao Caravlho, to having too many loan players, to breeching FFP.

There may be some guesswork involved too, but those facts alone have me more concerned than they did when Murphy was here. Breeching FFP and having to kill Shelvey's contract because of having to many loan players is as flat out lame, and says to me that the club doesn't have it's eye on the ball.