Neco Shay Williams

[Danga]

Spending close to £40m of our budget on two RB’s would just be foolish in my opinion. He’s a right back.

Depends what the budget is really . Being honest, I don't have a clue what Marinakis is prepared to spend to keep Forest in the top flight.

 

[Matt]

I’ve never said it’s not fair. Life isn’t fair.

My point is smaller clubs need to stop allowing the bigger teams to take the piss out of them by ripping them off for average players.

Liverpool and other teams make stupid amounts of money every year as they bully small clubs into selling their assets for in the grand scheme of things a small price.

They then sell said player for 4x the value as small clubs are stupid.

I can’t be bothered to reiterate this again, if we player 20m for a 3rd choice Liverpool player we are f***ing dumb.

Not if he's a 1st choice player for NFFC? Surely you understand the levels between Liverpool and NFFC right now - we might play in the same division but we are in a different league entirely.

The value for Neco Williams is in context to the value to our squad. Does he add £20m of value to our team? I'm not clever enough to answer that question but if our recruitment team think so, then he is worth that money.

 

[Mr RayReardon]

Problem is though is that by the time the window shuts we're already 5 games in.

It's a tough start anyway without making it more difficult but September has games we should be targeting 3 points from so we could really do without having to gel half a side by then.

I'm starting to get frustrated by the lack of activity I must say. The talk on a few players has really died down. Some folk on here can say 'have patience' and 'trust the club' all they want but we have a mountain to climb and we're very close to the players coming back for pre season.

To be completely honest, the team we can field now, without significant and quality additions, wouldn't win a single point from the opening 5 games. Steve Cooper and Dane Murphy know that full well. Players will come, but it's hard for three reasons. One, it's early in the window and clubs will hold on to players as long as possible on the hope other clubs start bidding and drive up their value. Two, players themselves will seek more established clubs, if given the choice. A lot of players will look at us and know we're relegation battlers especially given the deficit we face by losing our loan players. Of course, early signings reduce that by showing ambition but there's a Catch 22... Finally, and possibly most importantly, clubs like Liverpool quite simply do not need £20m and I dare say Wolves do either, so they're more than happy to not engage in a bid unless we absolutely meet their inflated value for players. Going after players from clubs who need the money - such as Lewis Potter would be a less risky strategy in terms of negotiations but far more of a riskier strategy in terms of players.



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[Calvin Plummer]

Yeah it’s their choice to set the price at 20m, it doesn’t mean it’s not a stupid price.

If we pay 20M for this lad we would of been ripped off massively. It’s also a quick way for us to be broke again in 6 months as we would of told everyone we don’t mind being taken for a fool.

It's down to the recruitment team to put a value on him. They aren't holding a gun to our head.

 

[gamble]

It's down to the recruitment team to put a value on him. They aren't holding a gun to our head.

Exactly, that 20m is based on potential.
Johnson isn't worth the 26m or so we rejected, however his future value could easily dwarf that.

Same as Davies Villa value him at 15m which imo is 10m too much, are they bullies for trying to get that much from us? No they're stupid as now we've moved on.

 

[BryanRoy22]

Just for shits n giggles, I'd like us to sign Neco Williams and Nico Williams, just to confuse pundits and commentators.

 

[Captain Sinister]

I've said it before, and I will say it again: we are the little fish new boys in the big pond, and the big fish are going to bully us around.
Getting another 3 players in is going to be tough... the closer we get to kick-off on August 5th, the higher the price we will have to pay.
Take Williams: Liverpool do not have to sell him.
They can carry his cost for as long as his contract is.
We absolutely need to buy a wing back or 2.
If we fail to buy the financial reality is that we will be back in the championship with only parachute payments to see us right for 3 seasons.
I can't think of any of the established clubs who actually need to sell their surplus talent.
I remember the Sales Director of a Belgian subsidiary of the company I worked for, who signed as an apprentice with Ajax.
He was talented, but not sufficient ly talented to win a place in the first team.
Ajax had no need to sell, so he sat there, his talent withering on the vine, along with a dozen or so other talented youngsters.
The club didn't give a flying f*** that they were ruining the potential of so many kids.
As soon as he could, he quit, and never played football again.
Williams seems to be enjoying a bit of success as a Welswh international, but Liverpool care not a jot whether they sell for his sake, unless the buying club pays the over-the-odds price Liverpool want.
Football is a soul-destroying profession for the vast number of kids who join the Academies at 8, 9 or whatever.
I posted elsewhere about a friend's son who committed suicide after the scurrilous treatment he received at the hands of another championship club.

 

[gamble]

I've said it before, and I will say it again: we are the little fish new boys in the big pond, and the big fish are going to bully us around.
Getting another 3 players in is going to be tough... the closer we get to kick-off on August 5th, the higher the price we will have to pay.
Take Williams: Liverpool do not have to sell him.
They can carry his cost for as long as his contract is.
We absolutely need to buy a wing back or 2.
If we fail to buy the financial reality is that we will be back in the championship with only parachute payments to see us right for 3 seasons.
I can't think of any of the established clubs who actually need to sell their surplus talent.
I remember the Sales Director of a Belgian subsidiary of the company I worked for, who signed as an apprentice with Ajax.
He was talented, but not sufficient ly talented to win a place in the first team.
Ajax had no need to sell, so he sat there, his talent withering on the vine, along with a dozen or so other talented youngsters.
The club didn't give a flying f*** that they were ruining the potential of so many kids.
As soon as he could, he quit, and never played football again.
Williams seems to be enjoying a bit of success as a Welswh international, but Liverpool care not a jot whether they sell for his sake, unless the buying club pays the over-the-odds price Liverpool want.
Football is a soul-destroying profession for the vast number of kids who join the Academies at 8, 9 or whatever.
I posted elsewhere about a friend's son who committed suicide after the scurrilous treatment he received at the hands of another championship club.

All clubs do it, we're no better. We took advantage of smaller clubs buying their talent for them to never play I mean we had a literal bomb squad at one point where all the players whose face didn't fit were placed.


Footballs a brutal game.

 

[Captain Sinister]

All clubs do it, we're no better. We took advantage of smaller clubs buying their talent for them to never play I mean we had a literal bomb squad at one point where all the players whose face didn't fit were placed.


Footballs a brutal game.

We have another bomb squad now:
Horvath, Smith, Laryea, Mbe Soh, Panzo, Taylor, Cafu, Lolley, Grabban, Silva, Da Costa, Ojeida...
None of them really impressed in the Championship (OK Grabban did, but he is now pst his best), and there isn't a single one will feature in the Premiership squad.
Or if they do feature, it will mean we are living up to being bookies favourite to go straight back down.
If the scouting network cannot unearth the lower price diamonds in the overseas leagues, and we rely on some or all of the above, we will have to go back to the other rem clubs, and they are unlikely to drop the asking price for anyone who is good enough.
This is the reality we face: hand over all your money, plus some... or piss off.
And I used the term "Football is a brutal game" quite deliberately... as you say, every club does it.
We are just at the pinnacle of the league structure, so the amounts of cash we are talking are magnifyed incredibly.

 

[Morpeth]

We have another bomb squad now:
Horvath, Smith, Laryea, Mbe Soh, Panzo, Taylor, Cafu, Lolley, Grabban, Silva, Da Costa, Ojeida...
None of them really impressed in the Championship (OK Grabban did, but he is now pst his best), and there isn't a single one will feature in the Premiership squad.
Or if they do feature, it will mean we are living up to being bookies favourite to go straight back down.
If the scouting network cannot unearth the lower price diamonds in the overseas leagues, and we rely on some or all of the above, we will have to go back to the other rem clubs, and they are unlikely to drop the asking price for anyone who is good enough.
This is the reality we face: hand over all your money, plus some... or piss off.

I know you’re Mr Pessimistic but I think you need some proper perspective. It’s football and isn’t static. That bomb squad you suggest is total rubbish as the majority are good acquisitions for the future. Grabban could be released if we wanted (but we don’t), the keepers are wrong as Horvath is good enough as back up and Smith is third choice and just signed a contract. The rest are easily sellable if we wanted.

 

[gamble]

Grabbans out of contract.

 

[Captain Sinister]

I know you’re Mr Pessimistic but I think you need some proper perspective. It’s football and isn’t static. That bomb squad you suggest is total rubbish as the majority are good acquisitions for the future. Grabban could be released if we wanted (but we don’t), the keepers are wrong as Horvath is good enough as back up and Smith is third choice and just signed a contract. The rest are easily sellable if we wanted.

I disagree: they are not total rubbish.
They are merely supernumerary to the sort of squad we need to survive and thrive in the Premiership.
I don't think any are "bad" compared to say Mills, Jenkinson, Bong and the like.
But there's not a single one who will be in the 25-man Premiership squad, and as such they need to be away to pursue their careers elsewhere.
Horvath is a keeper that I preferred in to Samba in the championship, but he isn't anywhere near good enough for the Prem, and he isn't young either.
Smith will always have a place in my heart for keeping us in the Championship with those world-class saves in that final game against Ipswich, but how would you feel if he were to be called upon in the Premiership?
Laryea was bought in as cover for Spence, and isn't young and will never make it as a Premiership full-back: he will do ok in the Championship with some other team.
Mbe Soh... injury prone already; Panzo is too slow; Taylor is a typical lower league journeyman, as is Cafu.
Lolley hasn't functioned effectively for 3 seasons, and isn't young.
Silva and Da costa... will never play at any level again in England.
Ojeida... I'll admit, could be one for the future.
Grabban is now out of contract (as Gamble rightly points out), and the rumours are he wants to go to the Middle or Far East for a last decent pay-day.
Most were sensible acquisitions when we were building a side to challenge in the championship, but the fact we had to bring in 5 loan players rather than use our own players tells you all you need to know.
We are not a rich club, despite the talk of £170m (that covers 4 years), and while the likes of Liverpool, Man Ure and Man City can carry surplus players' wages because of their wealth, we need to free up financial headroom to afford the calibre of player we need to survive as a Premiership club.
I think a lot of fans have not yet twigged as to the quantum leap in everything that promotion has engendered.
It is a massive, massive change of gear in all aspects of the club.
Either we face up to the reality and grasp the nettle now, or we simply milk the finance available for the one season in the top flight, and then rely on the parachute payments for the next 2 or 3 seasons.

 

[Berkshire Red]

I know you’re Mr Pessimistic but I think you need some proper perspective. It’s football and isn’t static. That bomb squad you suggest is total rubbish as the majority are good acquisitions for the future. Grabban could be released if we wanted (but we don’t), the keepers are wrong as Horvath is good enough as back up and Smith is third choice and just signed a contract. The rest are easily sellable if we wanted.

Well, Lolley's not. We'll not get much for him now, unfortunately.

 

[Morpeth]

Maybe not but he’s an asset to a championship team and someone will have him.

 

[Statto]

We have another bomb squad now:
Horvath, Smith, Laryea, Mbe Soh, Panzo, Taylor, Cafu, Lolley, Grabban, Silva, Da Costa, Ojeida...
None of them really impressed in the Championship (OK Grabban did, but he is now pst his best), and there isn't a single one will feature in the Premiership squad.
Or if they do feature, it will mean we are living up to being bookies favourite to go straight back down.
If the scouting network cannot unearth the lower price diamonds in the overseas leagues, and we rely on some or all of the above, we will have to go back to the other rem clubs, and they are unlikely to drop the asking price for anyone who is good enough.
This is the reality we face: hand over all your money, plus some... or piss off.
And I used the term "Football is a brutal game" quite deliberately... as you say, every club does it.
We are just at the pinnacle of the league structure, so the amounts of cash we are talking are magnifyed incredibly.

Calling them a bomb squad is a bit harsh.

They're below requirements because we went up, potentially. A few of them are unknown - Panzo hasn't played for us but clearly we signed him through a season when we had designs for going up. Likewise Laryea. Ojeda and Laryea are full internationals, as is Horvath. Lolley may be able to make an impact as he can still run at people and may be better when people don't actively try and annul him. Grabban is still an intelligent striker and a good finisher, though his impact waned last season due to injury. Horvath would be an adequate 2nd choice but wants to leave to play in the WC.

Agree that Smith, Taylor, Silva, Da Costa and potentially Cafu (though he is a hard working reserve type) probably shouldn't be anywhere near the team and Mighten needs to be loaned out.

Mbe Soh is the odd one. He was clearly highly rated at PSG and has struggled with injuries and Hughton not wanting to play him. But when he has played he has done well...

 

[incapable hulk]

15-20 million is a lot of money but we are talking about signing players in the Premier League, on permanent contracts, from one of the games elite clubs at the moment. I am not sure it's a case of us paying over the odds or being bullied around. Williams is an extremely highly rated young player who is a full international already. There's always an enormous premium attached to young British players of a certain talent level. Just look at Dortmund spending 25 million on Jude Bellingham from Brum - at age 17.

Every signing is a gamble but if we could definitively get far better for cheaper, with all of the same upsides, then I am sure the club would be out there bringing that player in. But the value here isn't just in what Williams is capable of now, it's in how much he will also improve. If he's already good enough to help a championship team win the league title and a national team qualify for it's first World Cup in 60 something years - then how much will he improve with even more game time? Spence, Johnson, Yates, Davis, Surridge and a couple of others came on in leaps and bounds under Cooper so the goal has to be able for him to sign players he can do that with at this level too. But here there's a higher bar with the fee but the rewards are possibly enormous.

It's always a gamble, but if Cooper and Murphy are this keen then I'd bank on Williams having the talent. I'd also guess that the clubs are just at the opening stages and they will eventually negotiate something both feel is reasonable, which will have some add on clauses that are the true value to Liverpool. I don't think it will be a straight 15-20 million in cash.

I still hope we get Spence, because he had such an impact here but it looks like he doesn't want to come back. If we get Williams then I am extremely excited to see what Cooper can bring out of him. It's exciting that we are looking to players like this.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Bomb squad means surplus to requirements to some and utter dogshit say away from training and never come back to others.

I think the Captain is right in his assessment. None of those players are going to be called upon at all, and if they are it's because we didn't strengthen enough.

Reality is we still need ten new players.

 

[Captain Sinister]

Calling them a bomb squad is a bit harsh.

They're below requirements because we went up, potentially. A few of them are unknown - Panzo hasn't played for us but clearly we signed him through a season when we had designs for going up. Likewise Laryea. Ojeda and Laryea are full internationals, as is Horvath. Lolley may be able to make an impact as he can still run at people and may be better when people don't actively try and annul him. Grabban is still an intelligent striker and a good finisher, though his impact waned last season due to injury. Horvath would be an adequate 2nd choice but wants to leave to play in the WC.

Agree that Smith, Taylor, Silva, Da Costa and potentially Cafu (though he is a hard working reserve type) probably shouldn't be anywhere near the team and Mighten needs to be loaned out.

Mbe Soh is the odd one. He was clearly highly rated at PSG and has struggled with injuries and Hughton not wanting to play him. But when he has played he has done well...

I use "bomb squad" because for me, they are all players who are unlikely ever to feature for Forest if we are to survive in the Prem, and I do accept that the previous bomb squads were unsuitable for us in the championship, while most of the ones I name would be OK in the championship.
However, we do not want to be back in the Championship, and that means recruiting another 8 or 9 players over the course of the current window, and the January window (notoriously hard to bring in real quality at a reasonable price).
If we succeed, and my contention is we absolutely have to succeed in bringing in the 8 or 9 new players, then we can't afford to carry a second string of 8 or 9 "Championship or L1" level players.
The culture shock hit me shortly after the jubilaion at Wembley.
I believe that for many fans the penny hasn't dropped as to the gulf between last season and this.
Yes, we won a couple of big Cup games: so did Boreham wood, but to secure points week in and week out with only 38 games is going to be an ascent of Everest comared to the Ben Nevis we conquered last season.

 

[Redemption]

There's no way we'll be replacing those 9 in one transfer window.

So some will have to make up the numbers anyway.

 

[Bob Fossil]

I love how people are writing Ojeda and Laryea off when they've looked decent in the limited minutes they've played.

And Panzo? The lads not played a single minute and has been a class above for the U23's.

 

[Ashley]

I love how people are writing Ojeda and Laryea off when they've looked decent in the limited minutes they've played.

And Panzo? The lads not played a single minute and has been a class above for the U23's.

I don't see any reason why Ojeda and Panzo couldn't be part of the 25 man squad. Both young and talented, and may develop into good players. Not starting XI quality players this coming season sure, but as squad players they might do a job.

I'd guess Laryea might want regular football with the World Cup around the corner, which I guess is the reason why there is talk of a loan move away. He looked decent enough during what little I saw of him.

I wouldn't consider any of them bomb squad material.

 

[Project Zeus]

Bomb squad means surplus to requirements to some and utter dogshit say away from training and never come back to others.

I think the Captain is right in his assessment. None of those players are going to be called upon at all, and if they are it's because we didn't strengthen enough.

Reality is we still need ten new players.

I'd be surprised if we sign as many as ten. I'm expecting another four or five by the time the season starts, with perhaps another two towards deadline day if players become available.

All in, around £60m spent in total on transfer fees, with another £20m in January.

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[RedSpoons]

I'd be surprised if we sign as many as ten. I'm expecting another four or five by the time the season starts, with perhaps another two towards deadline day if players become available.

All in, around £60m spent in total on transfer fees, with another £20m in January.

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I agree with the volume aspect

Assuming Henderson is a done deal, we need:
LWB, RWB, CAM, CM, CB as starters, so there are your 5.

Then yeah maybe 2/3 in the last couple days of the window. I’d guess ST, Fullback, CM

Think we spend more than 60 though. I think we’ll see another 75mil spent this window easily.

 

[Bonalair]

Captain your ‘bomb squad’ is utterly ridiculous and contains players for the future. Fail.

It is what it is. We’ll get who we get, we’ll use who we use. Enjoy the ride.

 

[SouthManchesterTree]

Don’t agree with the negative comments about Lolley. He’s had bad luck with injuries but certainly has it within him to be a sub this season at the very least. He’s a useful squad player.