João Carvalho

[cheapseats]

I feel it's only fitting Joao gets an Alf send off as I'm obviously obsessed with him.

Quite frankly, he's been our worst signing ever. No not our worst player ever, not by a long shot, but the 13.2m we payed for him was the best con-job anyone's ever pulled against the club.

Silenzi for 1.8m? Not even close. He was playing in the Prem and when he played against lower opposition in the cup he did fine and actually scored a few. Carvalho failed to stamp any kind of influence in 80-90% of his games, and was a total mismatch.

In years to come (hopefully not too long) we'll be sat in the Prem on the back of our academy lads, and laughing at how the name which got sung at almost every match for a 1-2 year period was the biggest waste of money we've ever spent.

Good luck to the kid. Defending his ability I get. He wasn't suited to the league, but he did have talent. Defending his actual signing still baffles me.

Farewell sweet prince.

Completely agree Alf. He was a shagwanking disaster and those of you that are satisfied with 7 good touches per £5M invested are the ones living in a different era. We were lucky he didn't tip us over financially and his shrug your shoulders message on leaving the club was the final straw-he should have been having a breakdown based on how dreadfully things have gone here, but he looked as happy as Larry and I suspect he was delighted just to pick up a fat wage whist doing nothing...

 

[valspoodle]

That was the problem for Carvalho, the fee. He didn't ask to go for that money and never said he was that good, but his talent and the fee were inextricably intertwined and the poor guy sank under the strain.

He also suffered because players are expected to defend one minute then score the next. Just not busy enough for the Championship.

 

[cheapseats]

That was the problem for Carvalho, the fee. He didn't ask to go for that money and never said he was that good, but his talent and the fee were inextricably intertwined and the poor guy sank under the strain.

He also suffered because players are expected to defend one minute then score the next. Just not busy enough for the Championship.

Sure he didn't ask for the fee, but I get a bit sick of that excuse. I mean everywhere else in life theres a link between price and quality/expectation. You don't pay for a Maserati and grin and bear it when you get a Renault Clio. You'd be doing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0onXhyLlE

 

[Project Zeus]

We had Leipzig's pants down with the £13m for Burke, and then Benfica ended up having ours down with the £13m for Carvalho. Two young players who didn't reach their potential after a big transfer, but hardly the end of the world in financial terms.

Good luck to him. I enjoyed watching him a lot under Karanka.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[valspoodle]

Sure he didn't ask for the fee, but I get a bit sick of that excuse. I mean everywhere else in life theres a link between price and quality/expectation. You don't pay for a Maserati and grin and bear it when you get a Renault Clio. You'd be doing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv0onXhyLlE

You'd be better off using a horse racing analogy. Cars are bits of tin and you know how they will perform. With animals (and humans) you don't.

But it's all water under the bridge now.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

It depends which source is preferred out of these:
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator
http://www.midfielddynamo.com/transfers/list_recordfees.htm
Fair enough, money is money in one respect but football inflation (and what's needed to buy in demand players or promising players, who are in contract) has gone into hyper mode in the 'mega money era'.
Carvalho's transfer fee was about 6.5% of the world record for Neymar at the time.
Silenzi's was about 14% of the Lentini transfer fee (I think that era wasn't the time to buy a long haired Italian from Torino and expect him to be world class or even close to his Torino form!)
I make it that Kingsley Black was about 20% of Roberto Baggio's record fee of the time, so Tiler was close to that too for example.
David Currie was getting towards 20% the price of Gullit (he signed for Forest before Baggio signed for Juventus), or at least getting towards 10% (I'm not sure what his price was but I'd thought it was several hundred thousand).
The likes of Ward, Wallace and Fashanu were around half of the Paolo Rossi transfer fee, or a bit more than that actually.
Jim Baxter, who didn't stay long or thrive much at Forest by all accounts, cost nearly half as much as Sormani (albeit it was 4 years later).

So I still think that sort of perspective is needed, plus maybe lots disagree but the way he played under Karanka (and O'Neill once he got the chance briefly), he didn't seem that far away from a £13m player (it didn't seem that far fetched he could have been playing a key role in a promotion team at one point, with youth on his side, and he had the quality at least to fit in a Premier League team if we had got up and added some other star players to gel with him).

So as punts go I think it was a nearer miss than Silenzi's transfer, because Silenzi never really played well at all (I'm not wanting to slate the guy about it - I don't know but he could well have been a nice guy and in the world of Mason Greenwood's and allegedly Cristiano Ronaldo's that's worthy of respect in itself).

Maybe it's fair to say he was an Alfa Romeo or even a Rolls Royce on his day, but with the 'engine' of an 80s Skoda (if we're doing car analogies)?

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Adding Jerkan too, who Chappers85 mentioned: he was about the same percentage of the cost of Shearer that Carvalho was of the cost of Neymar (but did Forest sign Jerkan before Newcastle signed Shearer?, not that that makes much difference as that became the record fee that summer anyway).

Those transfer fees aren't the be all and end all anyway - Santos could probably have sold Pele for as much as a big European club could cobble together if they'd wanted, so players like Sormani weren't the best in the world (Lentini and Denilson neither as later examples, even if expected to do better for their new clubs than they did probably).

But yeah, all I'm saying is young players that are deemed to have very good potential don't come cheap at all in this day and age (even taking the Neymar fee out of it, Carvalho's price was not more than Silenzi's percentage wise compared to the previous record that has been paid a few times.

In the scheme of things Forest did recoup (albeit beforehand) the money via the Burke sale, and while I'd say Coutinho is probably a better player than Carvalho ever seemed likely to be, and has made a good start at Aston Villa, I'm not sure that he was 10 times better or that Barcelona's purchase of him hasn't worked out worse than Forest's of Carvalho.

I see the farewell message as a positive one too - it wouldn't be appropriate to give some sort of apology for how much he'd cost (some of which Forest are getting back, which wasn't the case with Silenzi or Jerkan was it for example?), or a "what could have been" kind of statement. He says he enjoyed playing for the club and wishes it well, so I think that's to be appreciated.

 

[cheapseats]

It depends which source is preferred out of these:
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator
http://www.midfielddynamo.com/transfers/list_recordfees.htm
Fair enough, money is money in one respect but football inflation (and what's needed to buy in demand players or promising players, who are in contract) has gone into hyper mode in the 'mega money era'.
Carvalho's transfer fee was about 6.5% of the world record for Neymar at the time.
Silenzi's was about 14% of the Lentini transfer fee (I think that era wasn't the time to buy a long haired Italian from Torino and expect him to be world class or even close to his Torino form!)
I make it that Kingsley Black was about 20% of Roberto Baggio's record fee of the time, so Tiler was close to that too for example.
David Currie was getting towards 20% the price of Gullit (he signed for Forest before Baggio signed for Juventus), or at least getting towards 10% (I'm not sure what his price was but I'd thought it was several hundred thousand).
The likes of Ward, Wallace and Fashanu were around half of the Paolo Rossi transfer fee, or a bit more than that actually.
Jim Baxter, who didn't stay long or thrive much at Forest by all accounts, cost nearly half as much as Sormani (albeit it was 4 years later).

So I still think that sort of perspective is needed, plus maybe lots disagree but the way he played under Karanka (and O'Neill once he got the chance briefly), he didn't seem that far away from a £13m player (it didn't seem that far fetched he could have been playing a key role in a promotion team at one point, with youth on his side, and he had the quality at least to fit in a Premier League team if we had got up and added some other star players to gel with him).

So as punts go I think it was a nearer miss than Silenzi's transfer, because Silenzi never really played well at all (I'm not wanting to slate the guy about it - I don't know but he could well have been a nice guy and in the world of Mason Greenwood's and allegedly Cristiano Ronaldo's that's worthy of respect in itself).

Maybe it's fair to say he was an Alfa Romeo or even a Rolls Royce on his day, but with the 'engine' of an 80s Skoda (if we're doing car analogies)?

Boris Johnson needs to employ you for analysis on why parties are not parties with logic like this!.

 

[cheapseats]

We had Leipzig's pants down with the £13m for Burke, and then Benfica ended up having ours down with the £13m for Carvalho. Two young players who didn't reach their potential after a big transfer, but hardly the end of the world in financial terms.

Good luck to him. I enjoyed watching him a lot under Karanka.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

13M not the end of the world in financial terms for a Championship club!.

Are you Mel Morris?.

Financial origami aside (paying bits off one year and the next) If you make that mistake twice in a 3 year cycle you will be under embargo.

I'm glad you enjoyed watching him-many apparently did but objectively he was a very, very poor signing in terms of costutput. I know this will trigger others saying (again) that he didn't set the fee, but the most telling thing was that even a really good, attacking manager like Cooper didn't want to play him and ushered him out of the door, and that's all there is to say

 

[Raymondo Ponte']

Ya can pick all the bones out of this signing until yuv gor enuf to fill every cemetery in the country.

The fact is it was an absolutely disgraceful dereliction of duty to "get into bed" with an agent.

Fuk all to do with Carvz the Benfica reserve team midfielder.

 

[Project Zeus]

13M not the end of the world in financial terms for a Championship club!.

Are you Mel Morris?.

Financial origami aside (paying bits off one year and the next) If you make that mistake twice in a 3 year cycle you will be under embargo.

I'm glad you enjoyed watching him-many apparently did but objectively he was a very, very poor signing in terms of costutput. I know this will trigger others saying (again) that he didn't set the fee, but the most telling thing was that even a really good, attacking manager like Cooper didn't want to play him and ushered him out of the door, and that's all there is to say

It's not the end of the world when viewed in context with greater sums being received in sales.

The Burke fee alone cancels it out. But in the last five years you've also got:

Brereton (£7m)
Appiah (£8m)
Antonio (£8.5m)
Assombalonga (£15m)
Cash (£15m)

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[GreeksBearingGifts]

He made his debut.

In the U23 team.

And he was left out of the squad for the Europa League matches against Atalanta.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Going back to Silenzi, I suppose one thing that might be argued would be that in Frank Clark's mind he might not necessarily have been brought in as first choice, given Kevin Campbell was bought at the same time (for a bit more money actually), and Bryan Roy was surely going to be a first choice. The Collymore money was spent on multiple signings rather than one (I remember Bergkamp had been linked though at one point, in the Evening Post etc I think).

Maybe he was even intended more as an upgrade for the Jason Lee role, but probably it was more a case of whichever of Silenzi and Campbell started better would be first choice but the other might regularly be used as sub or rotation player (in Frank Clark's mind in the summer when he made the signings).

That's a factor with Carvalho too though - he was absolutely first choice initially (even though Goncalves, technically valued at more money don't forget, but it's just he was on loan so we never paid the valuation in the end, wasn't, which was Karanka's choice I guess), and as soon as that became questionable it all seemed to go downhill, to the point he seemed a bit shorn of confidence as a player and didn't seem to try as much in terms of skills and passes even in his latter appearances as sub even. I like the Zinkernagel loan signing but in some ways I think it'd have been better if he was the backup and Carvalho was still the first choice. But he's gone now, so everyone moves on and hopes for the best!

 

[Gyros Peter]

I learned my 'youtube highlights' lesson early - the Silenzi video on display before the Arsenal away game (I think?) had me and my mate in raptures. 'Looks better than Collynore!' we beamed... off screen he didn't even look better than Bob Rosario.

 

[HBB]

I remember us signing Silenzi that season very well - I was at Sky and did quite a few reports about the way English football was markedly turning to "marque" foreign flair players. Of course there has always been foreigh players in the game but this was the year it seemed to really take hold, probably partly because of the success of Klinsmann at Spurs. Problem was Silenzi just wasn't in the same class as some of the others that came into the game that year.

Chelsea brought in Gullit from Sampdoria, Boro brought in Juninho, David Ginola and Asprilla joined Newcastle, Sheff Wednesday went for Marc Degryse & Darko Kovaecevic, Leeds signed Yeboah from Frankfurt and quickly regretted buying Tomas Brolin from Parma, Slaven Bilic rocked up at West Ham, Man City signed Giorgi Kinkladze and Kavelashvili.

 

[Statto]

Not really sure what to make of Silenzi. There had to be a good player in there somewhere, because even though he played with Maradona at Napoli, he did score a lot of goals in a quite defensive division.

Though in the year or two before we got him (and 1.5m was a fair sum in those days, the record had just been set at 8.5) he hadn't really done well.

We'd also struggled to replace Collymore - Roy was still there, but more of a 2nd striker, Lee was just cover, and Silenzi and Campbell both struggled with form and fitness for a while.

He got a couple in the cups against lower league teams. But didn't get much of a chance in the league and didn't really take it when he did.

One time when I was about year 7 and could get into reserve matches for nothing, he was playing, and looked like he didn't really know what the round thing was, fell over it a couple of times I seem to remember... Good advertisement for a 1.5 million player.

 

[HBB]

Not really sure what to make of Silenzi. There had to be a good player in there somewhere, because even though he played with Maradona at Napoli, he did score a lot of goals in a quite defensive division.

Though in the year or two before we got him (and 1.5m was a fair sum in those days, the record had just been set at 8.5) he hadn't really done well.

We'd also struggled to replace Collymore - Roy was still there, but more of a 2nd striker, Lee was just cover, and Silenzi and Campbell both struggled with form and fitness for a while.

He got a couple in the cups against lower league teams. But didn't get much of a chance in the league and didn't really take it when he did.

One time when I was about year 7 and could get into reserve matches for nothing, he was playing, and looked like he didn't really know what the round thing was, fell over it a couple of times I seem to remember... Good advertisement for a 1.5 million player.

Thing was Silenzi wasn't really a player of any note in Italy he'd been top scorer for Reggiana in the second division, signed by Napoli but did very little and was injured alot. No idea what persuaded Torino to sign him after they'd let Lentini go for a world record fee to AC Milan.

Overall his record at Torino was 24 goals in 82 appearances with 1 international cap to his name, though the vast majority of those had come in an admittedly good last year at Torino where he scored 17 goals but alot of that could have been down to playing with Benito Carbone.

 

[Bob Fossil]

An assist for the winning goal 6 minutes into his debut.....

 

[belefonte]

No bitterness here. It just didn't work out.
I hope he smashes it at Olympiacos

 

[GreeksBearingGifts]

An assist for the winning goal 6 minutes into his debut.....

He was good, with good, incisive passes, although we were playing without 9 starters (it was a cup game). He understandably lacked match fitness so he was subbed early in the second half. We were much worse when he came off.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

An assist for the winning goal 6 minutes into his debut.....

Olympiacos are paying Forest £8m for every Carvalho assist or goal right?

 

[Erik]

Really hope it works out for him.

We all know there is a really talented footballer in there, he was sadly unable to show it at Forest.

 

[DizzyBala]

Obviously gone there for some asset re-management but the lad gets a move to sunnier climbs before likely ending up somewhere on the continent in the next couple seasons, like Tiago Silva did.
He had talent but could not adapt to the different systems that any of our post-Karanka managers employed.

 

[Harry1982]

Obviously gone there for some asset re-management but the lad gets a move to sunnier climbs before likely ending up somewhere on the continent in the next couple seasons, like Tiago Silva did.
He had talent but could not adapt to the different systems that any of our post-Karanka managers employed.

What a ball playing creative midfeilder couldn't adapt to long ball? Go figure. Any way his starting again tonight, hope he comes good given a few run of games.

 

[GreeksBearingGifts]

He played well today, with his swift, incisive passes and his good sense of the field. Unlucky not to score or have an assist.