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Financial Fair Play (FFP)

Strummer

Strummer

Socialismo O Muerte!
LTLF Minion
Redemption said:
The issue with that, is this is a matter each league. But in Europe, the leagues are competing against each other for resources and talent.

The argument in Germany, for example, is the Bundesliga wants to bring is fresh, private Capital to help it rebuild its broadcast rights to complete with the EPL. The spending power of the EPL, means that talent from Germany flows to England. And purely from a business point if view, that's problematic.

But football isn't just a business, it's a culture too. In Germany, where the fans have a real say, while they might want better product, their opposition isnt the shift of the focus to overseas TV, its the concession to private capital that would warp/distort their rights in the game.

And then you multiply this by the top 5 leagues in Europe. Then the next 15. And so on. And barely any league in Europe would want the constraints and consequences of wage caps.

You only have see the panic caused by the Chinese and Saudi leagues to see why
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The attempt by the DFB to sell future broadcast revenue to an investor was blocked by fan pressure after massive protests (as you probably know). And that doesn’t look like it’s coming back (which is a good thing).

Some clubs - including my local side - have spun their mens‘ first teams off into a separate legal entity, and invited commercial investment into that company, whilst the parent company (owned by the fans, as in „50+1“), still has a majority ownership. The VfB has just trousered €41m from Porsche, for an 11% holding in the VfB Stuttgart A.G., the limited company that runs the first team; given a similar-sized previous holding and investment from Mercedes-Benz in 2017, and a somewhat minor, more recent one from local sportswear company JAKO, the „members“, as in the VfB Stuttgart e.V., (of which I am a member) still controls around 78% of the A.G. company.

This has not been entirely smooth; there have been rumblings and discontent about the board of the A.G., in that the Chairman of the A.G. Board, Claus Vogt, was recently-voted out by the other board members - this is important (and controversial) because by agreement from 2017, when the A.G. was set up, it was accepted that the board of the e.V., which is the parent association owned by and run by club members (who of course, also elect its board), was to be given the right to nominate the chair of the A.G. board, and that chair would be a member of the e.V. This has not gone down well at all with the members, but then, there’s always some wrangling going off at the VfB.

The parent association (the e.V. company) is still owned by its members of course, and acts as a parent to not only the A.G., but also the other multi-sports branches of the VfB (including, nowadays, e-sports!)
 
Robertson

Robertson

Geoff Thomas
Mr RayReardon said:
Apologies ladies and gents, been lying low last week or so. Are we under the impression that we're likely to be docked points again if we don't sell either MGW or Murillo?? Or, is this just lazy journalism given our current situation and those two being our highest value assets?


Surely, keeping them and building a side around them is our best course of action??

Sent from my SM-A256E using Tapatalk
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Bit of both I think. Reckon we will need to someone before the end of June, as well as Mangala, to see us clear next season. But £10-15m should probably do it, so needn’t necessarily be a massive sale. Perhaps two or three small deals would do it.

However, I reckon another big sale later in the summer will be needed to get on top of FFP worries for the following year, or we’ll have the same thing again, needing to quickly raise money in June.

Of course, if we get relegated, we’ll need to sell both of them and more.
 
GOBIAS

GOBIAS

Ian Bowyer
Mr RayReardon said:
Apologies ladies and gents, been lying low last week or so. Are we under the impression that we're likely to be docked points again if we don't sell either MGW or Murillo?? Or, is this just lazy journalism given our current situation and those two being our highest value assets?


Surely, keeping them and building a side around them is our best course of action??

Sent from my SM-A256E using Tapatalk
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That is what FFP is really about isn’t it? Getting the smaller clubs to sell its best assets, ideally in a fire sale environment that benefits the big clubs.
 
M

MC Plantpot

First Team Squad
There’s always been a food chain though. I guess it’s the ‘force’ part of FFP that sits uneasy, but players were doing the forcing perhaps back in the day.

I mean, was there FFP back when the likes of Webb and Davenport moved to Utd or when Stan went to Liverpool? Has much has actually changed?
 
valspoodle

valspoodle

Steve Chettle
Heard an Everton fan and a Forest fan on the radio this morning talking about their upcoming games and the sport in general and both made the point that the current regs seriously inhibit clubs lower in this League from progressing.

Good to hear that point made on the national media; too much chatter about this situation, but little from the point of view of the fans.
 
Otis Redding

Otis Redding

Try A Little Tenderness
Mr RayReardon said:
Apologies ladies and gents, been lying low last week or so. Are we under the impression that we're likely to be docked points again if we don't sell either MGW or Murillo?? Or, is this just lazy journalism given our current situation and those two being our highest value assets?
Surely, keeping them and building a side around them is our best course of action??
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A reasonably comprehensive piece in this morning's i newspaper clearly indicates that we're fuc.ked next season either way Ray. Selling the crown jewels is the only way we're likely to avoid a points deduction in the PL, although time constraints due to the Euros suggests that it will be anything but easy to complete deals in time to meet the end of June deadline to avoid a sanction. Actually improving the squad for another PL campaign will be hugely, hugely challenging if not impossible.
 
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Alf-engelos Mindminackers

Alf-engelos Mindminackers

The Artiste formally known as "Wanksy"
MC Plantpot said:
There’s always been a food chain though. I guess it’s the ‘force’ part of FFP that sits uneasy, but players were doing the forcing perhaps back in the day.

I mean, was there FFP back when the likes of Webb and Davenport moved to Utd or when Stan went to Liverpool? Has much has actually changed?
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Yup.

Larry Lloyd (RIP) talks about it here when he was manager of Clownty...

 
GOBIAS

GOBIAS

Ian Bowyer
MC Plantpot said:
There’s always been a food chain though. I guess it’s the ‘force’ part of FFP that sits uneasy, but players were doing the forcing perhaps back in the day.

I mean, was there FFP back when the likes of Webb and Davenport moved to Utd or when Stan went to Liverpool? Has much has actually changed?
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There always will be that mate. I suppose the key is to be well run, or as well run as possible and then you can extract the best fees for your assets. United were the biggest team through the 70’s and 80’s and won next to f*** all. They have won next to f*** all of note in the last decade but still have paid out more than anyone else. In both those periods better run clubs or better coached clubs, or a bit of both out performed them.

I think the main aim of FFP is to protect the status Man Utd etc.. have. They don’t want another Man City happening. Man City wouldn’t have happened under these rules.

Parachute money is also a big issue for clubs trying to break through who haven’t had premier league money recently.
 
Chappers85

Chappers85

Can't Play Left-Back
MC Plantpot said:
There’s always been a food chain though. I guess it’s the ‘force’ part of FFP that sits uneasy, but players were doing the forcing perhaps back in the day.

I mean, was there FFP back when the likes of Webb and Davenport moved to Utd or when Stan went to Liverpool? Has much has actually changed?
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It has always been the case for those clubs to be fair. Despite my intense abhorrence for both Liverpool and Man Utd, they are the two biggest clubs in the country. Due to their support and history, they will always be at the top of the food chain (and Arsenal to a lesser extent).

My issue is that Chelsea and Man City have got themselves on a similar standing because of the ridiculous money pumped in by their owners over the last 2 decades. Now they want to stay there by pulling the ladder up from everyone else trying to climb it. So instead of 2/3 clubs cherry picking "smaller" clubs' best players, there's 6 teams (how Spurs have got themselves in the "Big 6" must be one of the most remarkable bits of marketing and PR in sports history), which might make the battle for the title/top 4 more exciting for the foreign/armchair neutrals, but it's basically a closed shop for everyone else. You might get the very rare Leicester winning the title, Newcastle or Villa getting top 4, but they can't stay there for any decent period of time (i.e. one season, two max) as they'll get outspent (or not be allowed to spend at the same rate).

Trouble is, I don't know how you fix it. If you say "no rules, spend what you like" then Man City will outspend everyone bar Newcastle who will then establish themselves into that top tier and then you might get clubs doing a Bolton or Portsmouth where they get themselves in so much trouble financially, they'll be lucky to survive as an entity and drop down the divisions. But the current rules just maintain the status quo. A wage cap will never work as you'd have to get all the different leagues and federations to agree, which won't happen.

The only thing I can think of is you limit the number of senior professional footballers employed by a club so they can't just bomb squad bad players (e.g. 30 professionals, maximum of 5 players allowed out on loan, and then a limited number of wage-capped 18-23 year old contracts). Then there might be consequences for shit recruitment (yes I know, Forest would suffer badly here too) but Chelsea and Man Utd have squandered hundreds of millions on shit/average players over the last few years, and then they might have to just survive with what they've got until they can sell players or the contracts run out.

It would never happen though. I thinknthis might just be the way football is now.
 
B

BristolfaninPeace

Youth Team
Just on the losses and Accounts.

The NF Football Investments accounts seem much more up to date and real time. Club ones were signed off pre December 31st, the NF Football Investments ones in late March.

There is a notable difference, the forecast £12-17m loss might be even inclusive of the January activity in particular the Mangala loan.

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I would suggest a pre tax loss as it stands at this second extrapolating in and outs plus the Written Reasons of £30m is possible for this season. That isn't the same as the FFP loss of course.

The bit that wasn't entirely clear was, did the £12-17m mean bona fide Pre Tax Loss or was it a forecast PSR loss ie Loss- Deductions.
 
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M

MaxiRobriguez

Bob McKinlay
Mr RayReardon

Mr RayReardon

Jack Burkitt
Otis Redding said:
A reasonably comprehensive piece in this morning's i newspaper clearly indicates that we're fuc.ked next season either way Ray. Selling the crown jewels is the only way we're likely to avoid a points deduction in the PL, although time constraints due to the Euros suggests that it will be anything but easy to complete deals in time to meet the end of June deadline to avoid a sanction. Actually improving the squad for another PL campaign will be hugely, hugely challenging if not impossible.
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Thanks, Otis.

Pretty grim reading...

Sent from my SM-A256E using Tapatalk
 
Redemption

Redemption

One less gobshite...
Cortez the Killer said:
Don't other industries have laws protecting the products in their market, such as the Monopolies Commision which prevents anti-competitive behaviour? Why not football?

Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk
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Here is a basic outline of what anti-competitive behaviour is... which bits do you think the EPL breaches?

www.gov.uk

Avoid and report anti-competitive activity

Understand and avoid all types of anti-competitive and cartel activity including price-fixing, collusion, bid-ridding and sharing markets. Know how to report concerns to the CMA.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
E

Est.1865

WFCG
Redemption said:
Here is a basic outline of what anti-competitive behaviour is... which bits do you think the EPL breaches?

www.gov.uk

Avoid and report anti-competitive activity

Understand and avoid all types of anti-competitive and cartel activity including price-fixing, collusion, bid-ridding and sharing markets. Know how to report concerns to the CMA.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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The rules encourage this amongst the ‘big’ teams…

Abusing a dominant position​

Your business might have a ‘dominant position’ in the market if:
  • it’s not affected by normal competitive restraints
 
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