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Financial Fair Play (FFP)

haarlemred

A. Trialist
I know this has been bought up before, my biggest issue with FFP is the £105M limit. It has been this way since 2013 and doesn't take into account the rise in inflation. Wages and transfers have sky-rocketed in this time. It would probably work if it took inflation every year.
 

ARedChester

First Team Squad
Not including Mangala, right?

So we would need to sell someone else for £30m+ by June 30th to avoid another breach?

Sounds like we could be back in front of a commission again next season.
Well at least we know the process. Time on recce is seldom wasted.

Maybe we are even in first name terms and are exchanging Chrismas cards - it's not all bad !
 

SparrowsAnus

Geoff Thomas
That wage bill is enormous for our first year as a PL club, although we’ve always been rinsed with wages compared to other similar clubs since I can remember. Like a Forest tax.

I think we all know the club needs to rethink its transfer policy. Thankfully a number of our more experienced (no doubt higher wage) players are out of contract and will be leaving.

Can’t see Kouyate,Arter or Hennessy being offered new deals and frankly they wouldn’t need replacing. We know Felipe is off and I can’t see us pursuing any of the loans again, apart from maybe Tavares as Nuno obviously likes him.

The only question marks are Boly, Aina and Wood.

Sounds like Aina well be renewed. As much as I’d like Wood for another year, he’s not worth what we’re paying him on a weekly basis. A tough decision there as we’re light up front anyway. Boly I don’t mind either way if he gets another year.

That’s at least 8 or 9 wages off the books.

We’ll probably shift Vlachodimos as well and have look to sell one of our assets.

I can see us facing a deduction again this time next year.
 

SouthManchesterTree

First Team Squad
Personally I think if clubs are really thinking of £50m for Murillo I’d bite their hands off. He’s great but he’s still got a lot to learn and I don’t think the squad is too weakened if he leaves.
 

YellowBelly Red

Viv Anderson
I know this has been bought up before, my biggest issue with FFP is the £105M limit. It has been this way since 2013 and doesn't take into account the rise in inflation. Wages and transfers have sky-rocketed in this time. It would probably work if it took inflation every year.
BoE gives a figure of around £141 million.
 

DB1702

Viv Anderson
Personally I think if clubs are really thinking of £50m for Murillo I’d bite their hands off. He’s great but he’s still got a lot to learn and I don’t think the squad is too weakened if he leaves.

I think if you put Murillo in a very good team he would look like a superstar after a few games and playing in a settled back line he would look even more of a superstar. I do not think we will have a choice if we were to be offered 50m we would have to sell due to the FFP situation.

As much as we all love Forest one thing I am sure we can mostly agree is we are a very poor team. Look at how much better Rice looks at Arsenal compared to his time at West Ham - I imagine Murillo will come on leaps and bounds playing with better players. It is criminal how we under use his ball distribution skills in games.
 

SouthManchesterTree

First Team Squad
That wage bill is enormous for our first year as a PL club, although we’ve always been rinsed with wages compared to other similar clubs since I can remember. Like a Forest tax.

I think we all know the club needs to rethink its transfer policy. Thankfully a number of our more experienced (no doubt higher wage) players are out of contract and will be leaving.

Can’t see Kouyate,Arter or Hennessy being offered new deals and frankly they wouldn’t need replacing. We know Felipe is off and I can’t see us pursuing any of the loans again, apart from maybe Tavares as Nuno obviously likes him.

The only question marks are Boly, Aina and Wood.

Sounds like Aina well be renewed. As much as I’d like Wood for another year, he’s not worth what we’re paying him on a weekly basis. A tough decision there as we’re light up front anyway. Boly I don’t mind either way if he gets another year.

That’s at least 8 or 9 wages off the books.

We’ll probably shift Vlachodimos as well and have look to sell one of our assets.

I can see us facing a deduction again this time next year.

Agree, and I also think MGW and Murillo will be poached - for good money - if Forest stay up.

If we go down it will be essential to sell them, and presumably 4-5 other first-teamers
 

DB1702

Viv Anderson
I know this has been bought up before, my biggest issue with FFP is the £105M limit. It has been this way since 2013 and doesn't take into account the rise in inflation. Wages and transfers have sky-rocketed in this time. It would probably work if it took inflation every year.

100% agree but the counter to that from other fans is all teams knew the rules at the start and while I think we have been dealt a very poor hand by the EPL - we knew the rules when we were promoted.

Finding out in June we were in real trouble is a disgrace but sensible business practice would have been to have got clarity in December or March on the promotion bonuses and covid loses. I blame the EPL massively but EM and those around him have also let the fanbase down as well.
 

SouthManchesterTree

First Team Squad
I think if you put Murillo in a very good team he would look like a superstar after a few games and playing in a settled back line he would look even more of a superstar. I do not think we will have a choice if we were to be offered 50m we would have to sell due to the FFP situation.

As much as we all love Forest one thing I am sure we can mostly agree is we are a very poor team. Look at how much better Rice looks at Arsenal compared to his time at West Ham - I imagine Murillo will come on leaps and bounds playing with better players. It is criminal how we under use his ball distribution skills in games.

Compared to last season:

Goalkeeper - worse than last season
Defence - probably also worse. Certainly no better
Midfield - better
Attack - worse

Losing Johnson and Henderson/Navas were big blows
 

Redemption

Chief Eye Roller
How come the squad value counts as 'intangible', please?
a tangible asset is something like a machine or other real thing with a physical embodiment, like inventory/stock and so on.

the squad is not made up of physical players, in the legal sense, but their contracts/registrations - this is just conceptual so it is intangible.
 
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ARedChester

First Team Squad
I know this has been bought up before, my biggest issue with FFP is the £105M limit. It has been this way since 2013 and doesn't take into account the rise in inflation. Wages and transfers have sky-rocketed in this time. It would probably work if it took inflation every year.
My issue with FFP is that clubs should not be losing money. The model should allow a 'modest' loss. £105M is not modest by anyone standards, nor is it sustainable. By reducing this to #30M over 3 seasons would help to reduce player costs and wages in the UK.

They should also force the payment to government departments such HMRC and not allow just the payment of the fines and interest. This would then also level up things for all clubs.
 
So looking at the figures it suggests Mangala’s sale isn’t included, 47.5m Johnson, 5m Surridge, 3m for Ojeda, 4m for Scarpa, then other smaller sales and loan fees.
So, if Mangala’s 10m loan fee and subsequent sale (if receives this year )isn’t included, then we don’t need to sell.

We might choose to, but don’t need to.
 

eyupmeduck

Geoff Thomas
Seeing a lot of this sort of commentary from other fans. We can talk about Derbys dire financial situation elsewhere but they made a massive loss without being able to buy players for any transfer fee, when they can spend again then they will look even worse.

I don't think anyone from our club thinks that the spending on transfer fees we did last year was (a) Repeatable and so (b) Is supposed to be sustainable, other fans reacting like all of a sudden we are a "basket case" club when the losses we post are lower than their clubs is odd. Some of them have had literally billions of pounds more than we have over the sky EPL years and still make losses in excess of ours.

I think its absolutely clear though that staying in the Premier league long term is essential for this to work but its getting a bit boring when snipers are having a pop.

A paragon of virtue are Brighton. If you look at their accounts for the year before they became a feeder club for the top six (i.e Pre Ben White sale) they made an operating loss of £48m, had a wage bill of £108m, signed £60m worth of players versus £139m turnover and owed the parent group £360m. Not sustainable, but equally not described as a basket case though because in the longer term they have sold players for silly money and reinvested wisely (Caceido bought for £25m sold for £100m for example).

I'm still annoyed at the narrative and external criticism in truth but I do accept that we haven't acted efficiently at the same time, I guess it just shows that you can't be as well thought of as Brighton without taking similar risks that they have but they get plaudits, we get slaughtered.
fdcc26e4f58b994484dc41a376f95bc3.jpg


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My issue with FFP is that clubs should not be losing money. The model should allow a 'modest' loss. £105M is not modest by anyone standards, nor is it sustainable. By reducing this to #30M over 3 seasons would help to reduce player costs and wages in the UK.

They should also force the payment to government departments such HMRC and not allow just the payment of the fines and interest. This would then also level up things for all clubs.
Surely that would just make the gap even bigger and give zero chance to newly promoted sides?

If anything, losses should only be allowed if revenue is lower than a fixed figure. That would decrease the gap to the more established clubs and reduce their sporting advantage.

That and any promoted clubs are allowed 105m losses over the 3 year period. Not penalised for their promotion.
 
H
Seeing a lot of this sort of commentary from other fans. We can talk about Derbys dire financial situation elsewhere but they made a massive loss without being able to buy players for any transfer fee, when they can spend again then they will look even worse.

I don't think anyone from our club thinks that the spending on transfer fees we did last year was (a) Repeatable and so (b) Is supposed to be sustainable, other fans reacting like all of a sudden we are a "basket case" club when the losses we post are lower than their clubs is odd. Some of them have had literally billions of pounds more than we have over the sky EPL years and still make losses in excess of ours.

I think its absolutely clear though that staying in the Premier league long term is essential for this to work but its getting a bit boring when snipers are having a pop.

A paragon of virtue are Brighton. If you look at their accounts for the year before they became a feeder club for the top six (i.e Pre Ben White sale) they made an operating loss of £48m, had a wage bill of £108m, signed £60m worth of players versus £139m turnover and owed the parent group £360m. Not sustainable, but equally not described as a basket case though because in the longer term they have sold players for silly money and reinvested wisely (Caceido bought for £25m sold for £100m for example).

I'm still annoyed at the narrative and external criticism in truth but I do accept that we haven't acted efficiently at the same time, I guess it just shows that you can't be as well thought of as Brighton without taking similar risks that they have but they get plaudits, we get slaughtered.
fdcc26e4f58b994484dc41a376f95bc3.jpg


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
How can wages be 147m?! Even if we had 50 players that means the average is 60k a week?
 

eyupmeduck

Geoff Thomas
H

How can wages be 147m?! Even if we had 50 players that means the average is 60k a week?
Its a big jump and its probably indicative of the craziness of Football.

We arguably were paying the likes of Colback, Cook and Arter a decent whack (Possibly £2m a year) for a mainly decent championship player. I read somewhere that the average EPL wage is like £70k a week!

For us we covered Hendersons £120k a week and also paid Navas I think £50k a week at the same time when we perhaps could have paid a certain someone half of that total to stay on for a bit! That's £7m ish though.

Lingard was on I think with bonuses £8m

Shelvey, Wood, Ayew, Danilo and Felipe from January probably cost us like £8m-£9m in wages for the time they were with us.

Arter and Taylor £3m for not kicking the ball as well won't have helped us either!

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
 

Robertson

Viv Anderson
H

How can wages be 147m?! Even if we had 50 players that means the average is 60k a week?
Well the base value is 130m, 147m includes social security etc (which still needs to be paid obv).
Non-playing staff in these as well? 10m? I dunno. Another 20m bonuses on top of base wages takes it down to 100m. But yeah, a lot of players are clearly earning more than we thought.

I'll argue till the cows come home we negotiated decent value transfer fees for most of the players, but that evidently hasn't extended to the wage negotitations 🤪.
 

Notcher

Stuart Pearce
a tangible asset is something like a machine or other real thing with a physical embodiment, like inventory/stock and so on.

the squad is not made up of physical players, in the legal sense, but their contracts/registrations - this is just conceptual so it is intangible.
A good way of people understanding it is for them to think of Diakhaby and his control as an example. You imagine that you would able to see a professional control the ball but that was conceptual, his first touch never actually existed. He was real but there was nothing by way of an asset that we found see or that he could touch.
 

MaxiRobriguez

Bob McKinlay
Johnson plus others brought in £58.8m and Sangare etc cost £86.5m (so somewhere around £20m amortised). That won't include any of the January transfers though.

Add in agent fees and increase in wages.
 

alabamared

Stuart Pearce
H

How can wages be 147m?! Even if we had 50 players that means the average is 60k a week?
It will include all of the none playing staff as well (and presumably the acadamy staff).
 

MaxiRobriguez

Bob McKinlay
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