The "faux grief" bandwagon

[Farmer Jack]

...Hi...


I've been reading several threads on the death of Nigel Doughty over a few forums, and there seems to be a lot of bitchiness about "people changing their tune" "trying to out grieve each other" and that "his (Doughty's) detractors should just butt out".


First of all let me make clear what I think about Doughty's tenure at the club (despite his untimely passing), I still think it wasn't a success, both on the pitch and in financial terms (going to get flamed about that last point (again)). What I said in the 'RIP' thread was that I didn't want to come across as a complete ingrate for certain things which included, Mr. Doughty initially investing when seemingly no one else would, the fact that we didn't have a foreign owner who knew nothing/didn't care about football (things could have been worst with that type of 'owner' IMO), and the fact that he offered to continue paying the players wages (lets face it we'd be even more f**ked if he hadn't offered to do so). I also said he seemed like a good man (because of his generosity to charity among other things, so a fair point). To add to this I've only seen one or two people you could accuse of "changing their tune", most people still haven't changed their stance one iota.


I don't know if these people are missing the point, or are just trolling, but all I can see is people offering condolences for a man who died an untimely death, and to his family who've been left behind; I really don't see what the problem is with being sad about a man dying, and for people wanting to pay their respects.


But you know something else about my opinions (and everyone elses, positive or negative) on Nigel Doughty's time at the club (not on the man himself)? It simply doesn't matter. Nigel is gone now, no more involvement in the running of the club, period. It is up to others now to fund the running of the club, and to ensure we're secure financially; it's the beginning of a new era, we have to move on because there's nothing that's going to change what's gone on before.


I'm sorry if this is one of those "too soon" posts, but I feel there's been a lot of spiteful, indignified comments made, and that certain people need to gain some perspective on the whole thing.

 

[Red Dawn]

Couldnt agree more. Whatever way you look at it, his tenure as Forest chairman can only be seen as a failure.

Still doesn't mean we cant offer condolences as he did what he thought was right, and (more than i realised) he seemed to be a genuinely good person.

 

[Tutts]

I've read that twice now and I'm still not entirely sure what your point is?

EDIT: The original post not Red Dawns.

 

[Captain Sinister]

...Hi...


I've been reading several threads on the death of Nigel Doughty over a few forums, and there seems to be a lot of bitchiness about "people changing their tune" "trying to out grieve each other" and that "his (Doughty's) detractors should just butt out".



First of all let me make clear what I think about Doughty's tenure at the club (despite his untimely passing), I still think it wasn't a success, both on the pitch and in financial terms (going to get flamed about that last point (again)). What I said in the 'RIP' thread was that I didn't want to come across as a complete ingrate for certain things which included, Mr. Doughty initially investing when seemingly no one else would, the fact that we didn't have a foreign owner who knew nothing/didn't care about football (things could have been worst with that type of 'owner' IMO), and the fact that he offered to continue paying the players wages (lets face it we'd be even more f**ked if he hadn't offered to do so). I also said he seemed like a good man (because of his generosity to charity among other things, so a fair point). To add to this I've only seen one or two people you could accuse of "changing their tune", most people still haven't changed their stance one iota.


I don't know if these people are missing the point, or are just trolling, but all I can see is people offering condolences for a man who died an untimely death, and to his family who've been left behind; I really don't see what the problem is with being sad about a man dying, and for people wanting to pay their respects.


But you know something else about my opinions (and everyone elses, positive or negative) on Nigel Doughty's time at the club (not on the man himself)? It simply doesn't matter. Nigel is gone now, no more involvement in the running of the club, period. It is up to others now to fund the running of the club, and to ensure we're secure financially; it's the beginning of a new era, we have to move on because there's nothing that's going to change what's gone on before.


I'm sorry if this is one of those "too soon" posts, but I feel there's been a lot of spiteful, indignified comments made, and that certain people need to gain some perspective on the whole thing.

Brave person to post this.
As someone that started a thread about what lies ahead for he Club, I can empathize with you when you were writing your post...
ND's family, genuine friends and close colleagues are the only ones to my mind who will be genuinely grieving - for anyone else to claim they are grieving, rather than just sad is stretching their emotional response a bit too far.
With no disrespect for the man or his family, I think that the sooner the Board comes out with a statement as to them having a plan to continue to keep the Club going (be it with legacies, or funds committed prior to ND's death, or however) the better it will be for all - OK, the players may be in the "know" already that their jobs and wages are secure, but the fans, are not and as we represent a significant contributor to the revenue of the Club no one can argue we are not important.
In what is, hopefully, the highly unlikely scenario of Forest having to fold, then as a supporter for more than 50 years I would be grieving.

 

[Rich]

You can only judge success against why would have happened had the person not tried.

Had Doughty not been there, I'm convinced we would have been the club the example was made out of. We would have gone bust.

With that in mind, I see his time here as very successful.

There's a lot more to what he did here than the 90 minutes of football each week some care about.

 

[winnits]

I don't see why being appreciative, sad or wishing to proffer something to the memory of somebody who made a difference to both our football club and our local community is being dismissed as 'faux grieving' - for one, it's not grieving in the same way his family and friends will be experiencing, for two, it's not faux. Of course, we are all individuals and handle things in different ways - if a memorial book, a charitable donation, leaving a scarf or flowers at the ground is 'too much' then simply don't participate - but don't castigate those that do.

The club I am sure WILL be making steps to arrange what the future now holds, but a lot of that will be ensconced in a probably more-complex-than-usual legal mire that would follow any person passing away. Until there is some clarity from those handling Nigel Doughty's affairs there is little the club can do other than attempt to operate on a 'business as usual' basis and await further developments. It will be difficult for them to announce anything other than this at this time because they don't know what provision has been made for the future of Forest - will the debts be called in in 2014? We don't know. But we will in weeks or months, then the announcements can be made. All we know for now is that funding is in place to honour ND's commitments as it was when he stepped down, business conducted after that is separate - so it's down to the current board to work the best way of utilising funds from Morgan and Bamford, some of which of course they already have.

The original post isn't really all that contentious nor controversial - aside from the implication in the thread title. This in the replies is a little over-harsh:

ND's family, genuine friends and close colleagues are the only ones to my mind who will be genuinely grieving - for anyone else to claim they are grieving, rather than just sad is stretching their emotional response a bit too far.

I respect that for Captain Sinister that is how he sees the world, but to enforce that view on others based on his classifications is rather dictatorial. Different people react to events in different ways - and whether you think it worthy of special note or not, a man of Nigel Doughty's stature and deeds in both football and philanthropic terms is not a 'normal case'.

 

[incapable hulk]

I don't see why being appreciative, sad or wishing to proffer something to the memory of somebody who made a difference to both our football club and our local community is being dismissed as 'faux grieving' - for one, it's not grieving in the same way his family and friends will be experiencing, for two, it's not faux. Of course, we are all individuals and handle things in different ways - if a memorial book, a charitable donation, leaving a scarf or flowers at the ground is 'too much' then simply don't participate - but don't castigate those that do.

The club I am sure WILL be making steps to arrange what the future now holds, but a lot of that will be ensconced in a probably more-complex-than-usual legal mire that would follow any person passing away. Until there is some clarity from those handling Nigel Doughty's affairs there is little the club can do other than attempt to operate on a 'business as usual' basis and await further developments. It will be difficult for them to announce anything other than this at this time because they don't know what provision has been made for the future of Forest - will the debts be called in in 2014? We don't know. But we will in weeks or months, then the announcements can be made. All we know for now is that funding is in place to honour ND's commitments as it was when he stepped down, business conducted after that is separate - so it's down to the current board to work the best way of utilising funds from Morgan and Bamford, some of which of course they already have.

The original post isn't really all that contentious nor controversial - aside from the implication in the thread title. This in the replies is a little over-harsh:

I respect that for Captain Sinister that is how he sees the world, but to enforce that view on others based on his classifications is rather dictatorial. Different people react to events in different ways - and whether you think it worthy of special note or not, a man of Nigel Doughty's stature and deeds in both football and philanthropic terms is not a 'normal case'.

Heck of a post thier winnits

 

[Wolser]

The way I've seen it and will continue to see it,is I don't think Nigel was the best Chairman in the world...but..

He saved the club from possibly going under,and above all,he was a Forest fan. Its sad to see one of our own die

 

[Farmer Jack]

I've read that twice now and I'm still not entirely sure what your point is?

EDIT: The original post not Red Dawns.

In a nutshell, a man has died, and all some people can do is start the 'hypocrite' argument in a thread of condolonces (among other things) because some of Nigel Doughty's critics (not abusers) are genuinely sad about his death. What exactly does that achieve? Peoples opinions on Nigel Doughty aren't going to bring him back, nor are they going to change anything regarding the running of the club; so why bring up the hypocrite argument?

I'll leave it at that anyway.

 

[Hurricane Fly]

People clearly hold differing opinions regarding not only the tenure of the late Mr. Doughty but the appropriateness or otherwise of raising certain questions or opinions.

Fine. That's understandable.

But if everybody keeps dignity at the forefront of their minds and refrains from crassness, belittlement and pettiness, regardless of provocation, then that would be testament to the man and to the credit of all.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

In a nutshell, a man has died, and all some people can do is start the 'hypocrite' argument in a thread of condolonces (among other things) because some of Nigel Doughty's critics (not abusers) are genuinely sad about his death. What exactly does that achieve? Peoples opinions on Nigel Doughty aren't going to bring him back, nor are they going to change anything regarding the running of the club; so why bring up the hypocrite argument?

I'll leave it at that anyway.

I agree, but I would also say that it's only a very, very, few amount who have posted such a 'hypocrite' post and it's testiment to most of the forum that they are wise to it and don't even bat an eyelid at such posts. As one of Doughty's biggest critics I've obviously changed my name out of respect (used to be DLC), but my footballing/business views haven't changed much (although i was not aware just how much he donated to various causes, and this had endeared him to me more). However one thing that Doughty's passing has made me do is accept that what's past is past and to look to the future, and I'm just a bit weary currently of participating in certain discussions which could bring Doughty into the conversation as I, personally, feel more comfortable giving it a week or so for the dust to settle - just feels like the right thing to do for me.

 

[Tutts]

In a nutshell, a man has died, and all some people can do is start the 'hypocrite' argument in a thread of condolonces (among other things) because some of Nigel Doughty's critics (not abusers) are genuinely sad about his death. What exactly does that achieve? Peoples opinions on Nigel Doughty aren't going to bring him back, nor are they going to change anything regarding the running of the club; so why bring up the hypocrite argument?

I'll leave it at that anyway.

Ah right, yep, I agree with that completely.

 

[Ravi]

I don't agree that his time at the club 'can only be seen as a failure'. Some aspects were, but others such as the Academy are a lasting legacy that we wouldn't have had otherwise.
I agree entirely about the 'faux grieving' nonsense. Just because some people don't care, are WUMs, or just plain emotionally disabled doesn't mean they can proscribe what others should feel. It is purely personal. I felt shock and sadness at Doughty's death - none of which was 'false'. I don't feel the need to justify my feelings as if I shouldn't have felt that way. Just because you've never met someone doesn't mean you can't be affected by their deaths. I only met Cloughy once as well, but I even shed a tear or two when he died.
If you're going to start condemning others for their emotions, what about the 'faux' excitement when a few men on some grass kick a ball into a net. Ridiculous eh?

 

[congo_red_49]

In a nutshell, a man has died, and all some people can do is start the 'hypocrite' argument in a thread of condolonces (among other things) because some of Nigel Doughty's critics (not abusers) are genuinely sad about his death. What exactly does that achieve? Peoples opinions on Nigel Doughty aren't going to bring him back, nor are they going to change anything regarding the running of the club; so why bring up the hypocrite argument?

I'll leave it at that anyway.

For me, criticism of his reign whilst he was alive, although some of it was presented in an over the top, negative manner, still had the potential to be constrcutive. After all, we all make mistakes and try to learn from them the best we can. Criticising him now, seems more than a little pointless as there is no longer anything he can do. As with anyone who is no longer with us, the only sane thing to do is celebrate their positives and forgive them their mistakes.

 

[woodfordred]

Frankly, there is only one acceptable position for the ND critics, which is the utmost sympathy for the loss of a decent man, and that anything they ever said or did they said honestly and with respect because they they thought it was good for the club.

Running a football club is very, very difficult - you have to deal with some odd characters and you are buffeted by events. ND was undoubtedly one of the best businessmen in the country and he had the best of intentions and yet he was not totally successful at Forest.

By the way, I haven't seen a statement from Billy Davies, has there been one?

 

[Tutts]

By the way, I haven't seen a statement from Billy Davies, has there been one?

Yup:

Billy Davies would certainly like to talk to the Leeds Board. Billy Davies has a great deal of respect for Leeds. Billy Davies is starting to run of of money. Billy Davies.

 

[winnits]

In a nutshell, a man has died, and all some people can do is start the 'hypocrite' argument in a thread of condolonces (among other things) because some of Nigel Doughty's critics (not abusers) are genuinely sad about his death. What exactly does that achieve? Peoples opinions on Nigel Doughty aren't going to bring him back, nor are they going to change anything regarding the running of the club; so why bring up the hypocrite argument?

I'll leave it at that anyway.

I agree with this, too.

 

[michael]

I don't see why anyone is bothered about what they where saying before his death, the whole thing is becoming a bit cliquey - "I was team ND all along" "I wasn't but I've changed my mind" seems to be the two main ones, and of course not forgetting the bunch that feel they need to rat out everyone that bad mouthed him when he was alive.

Now 2 things just because they may have said something bad about him doesn't mean they where somehow looking towards his death, second thing everyone should be humbled by this but it seems nobody is.

The vast majority of people on this forum need to pipe the f*** down and stop being childish.

At the risk of alienating myself but I actually don't care.

 

[sedgred]

I do feel that the overwhelming response on the forum has been an expression of sadness for the death of a man so young with so much to offer life, a man who did not just count his money, but help the less fortunate,

The man was the ultimate Forest fan prepared to put his money where his mouth was.

I have not seen any serious point scoring posts about either supporter or detractor, just a dignified approach from the majority.

 

[Tricky tree travel]

People clearly hold differing opinions regarding not only the tenure of the late Mr. Doughty but the appropriateness or otherwise of raising certain questions or opinions.

Fine. That's understandable.

But if everybody keeps dignity at the forefront of their minds and refrains from crassness, belittlement and pettiness, regardless of provocation, then that would be testament to the man and to the credit of all.

Amen

 

[SLM92NF]

The idea of we shouldn't really be grieving doesn't really work.

Look at when Clough died. There was a phenomanal amount of people that showed a lot of sadness and a big element of grieving. This was much more accepted because what he did was bring the finest period in the clubs history and many people were able to witness it.

I personally view it as there was a very positive and a very negative aspect to his tenure. The positive being his financial backing, the negative being his decisions. Now for me, the focus has just turned from the poor decisions which seemed to be most peoples focus of the last 6 months or so to the financial backing which now he has died has become the focal point of his time. It could be argued that it has just made people see the bigger picture and realise he has made a valuable contribution to this club.

For me, my initial reponse to the news was "well what happens to the club" We owe this man £75m and that loan is now going to change hands. The insecurity of the club in my eyes is sky high at the moment because we don't know what's going to happen, who is going to be the owner and who is going to be inheriting the club and the loan that the club owes to his estate. Only time will tell on the matter but to me it just seems that all it takes is the new owner of the estate to claim the money and that's the club done unless we get a new buyer.

My opinion hasn't changed on his time as chairman, despite his intense funding which we should be grateful for, he failed because the funding as much as it is hasn't seen us make a real progression from where we originally started under him, especially now because there really is no financial security at the moment. It is a terrible thing to happen and my sympathy goes to those who knew him but right now I am just waiting to hear what the future holds for Nottingham Forest.

 

[Mr Jester]

People clearly hold differing opinions regarding not only the tenure of the late Mr. Doughty but the appropriateness or otherwise of raising certain questions or opinions.

Fine. That's understandable.

But if everybody keeps dignity at the forefront of their minds and refrains from crassness, belittlement and pettiness, regardless of provocation, then that would be testament to the man and to the credit of all.

This^

 

[winnits]

I don't see why anyone is bothered about what they where saying before his death, the whole thing is becoming a bit cliquey - "I was team ND all along" "I wasn't but I've changed my mind" seems to be the two main ones, and of course not forgetting the bunch that feel they need to rat out everyone that bad mouthed him when he was alive.

Thing is, it hasn't. There are so few people who mention either of those things. If there are two 'cliques' of these definitions they probably each have 3 members at most.

Now 2 things just because they may have said something bad about him doesn't mean they where somehow looking towards his death, second thing everyone should be humbled by this but it seems nobody is.

I don't think anybody have suggested the first thing aside from one or two people at most. The second thing, I think most people are!

The vast majority of people on this forum need to pipe the f*** down and stop being childish.

Actually, no they don't. The vast majority of people have been fairly dignified.

At the risk of alienating myself but I actually don't care.

At the risk of, or out of a desire to? Most of what you've posted is patently inaccurate.

 

[Mr Jester]

Thing is, it hasn't. There are so few people who mention either of those things. If there are two 'cliques' of these definitions they probably each have 3 members at most.

Agreed. I've only seen about 3 posts from the supposed camp "team ND" and none from the supposed "Wind of Change" camp.

The vast majority of people on this forum need to pipe the f*** down and stop being childish.

I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?

 

[garibaldifred]

I would like to thank JWJW for removing his distasteful post on the day of Mr. Doughty's death. Thank you for having second thoughts.