Snatchday 1: Nottingham Forest Vs the PGMOL

[RedRobbo]

So last game of the season. Newcastle level with Spurs on points and they are both chasing the last Champions League Place.

Is Michael Oliver (a Newcastle fan) any where near reffing or being on VAR duty for the Spurs game? No.

And is the reason he's no where near the game because the PMGOL or anybody else is questioning his integrity? No.

In fact its the opposite. In the increasingly likely event that a contentious decision goes against Spurs, or 2 decisions, or three decisions and Spurs are denied a Champions League spot as a result, his integrity and that of the PGMOL and of the competition is not in question, because guess what, he's not on duty.

So it isn't about Michael Oliver (it could be any Newcastle fan) and it isn't about questioning his integrity. It's about protecting it.

Atwell is not mentioned in the tweet. It could have been any Luton fan. It could have been a Burnley fan. It's irrelevant, as is their integrity. But the allegiance is critical because he's a fan of a club who are in a relegation battle with the two teams he's overseeing.

Forest were angry. Rightly so. We got absolutely sh*t on by these mugs on Sunday.

But the question posed by the tweet (which still hasn't been addressed) is why was a Luton fan on VAR?

A perfectly reasonable question.

And isn't it a slight irony that you started your post by accusing Forest fans who have defended the club, of being bias because of their allegiance to the club. Football fans are biased? Surely not?

Sadly can’t happen.
5th champions league place no longer possible..

 

[Strummer]

Sadly can’t happen.
5th champions league place no longer possible..

That’s not quite true; it is mathematically possible, but very, very unlikely given the advantage in coefficients that Italy and Germany already have.

 

[Robertson]

Sadly can’t happen.
5th champions league place no longer possible..

I think it is technically possible but is extremely unlikely - would need Villa to win all three possible matches and the German teams to lose all but one or something like that.

 

[Collymore!]

For the record I don’t believe in any of the conspiracy theories or similar, we’ve just been completely shit.

There’s definitely some kind of bias towards the top-five teams subconsciously though (and I’m sure someone more au fait on psychology will know the term) but that comes from humans being influenced, and refs go into games knowing they’re reffing a team who are better/worse - it has to affect people. VAR should solve this by having two refs looking at things, but VAR refs are just as shit.

The state of the forum is horrific at the moment, 10x worse than what we mocked Everton for. This season will genuinely damage some fans, but we’re seeing this distrust across all walks of life. We’ll end up like Huddersfield fans if we don’t come back to reality, and we’ll probably take the same route on the pitch!

There is no conspiracy against us, just a really poor team with no motivation.

The EPL could have avoided all of this thought by not having a Luton fan as the VAR.

 

[alabamared]

Nothing. I disagree with it, and I feel the club should more circumspect. But that's a matter of opinion.

The issue I have is with the pretence that the original tweet doesn't question his integrity, when clearly it does.

So let me get this right you would not question integrity as a matter of principal? Really? That to me seems the shallow end of the logic pool.
I you follow that logic then corruption will abound because there will be no checks and balances and people will become corrupt purely because their integrity will not be questioned.
If there is evidence to suggest that something is not right then it should be questioned and openly so. The strongest evidence to me was in the Liverpool game I can find no other reason than bias or mandate; can you?
We know that another ref came out a while back now and admitted that he had recieved some instructions concerning certain games which begins to blow away the integrity excuse. How do you expalin that?
The frenzy that the authorities have gone into is totally unnecessary if they had responded with 'OK we see your concern, not happy with the way you raised it, but we will look into it and respond in a few days' would have klled a lot of this stone dead.
Also the betting situation gives me cause for concern, players do it do you think no referee does?
I am not sure what has happened but what I am sure of is that it shouldn't be swept under the table on teh basis that you can't question authority.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

For the record I don’t believe in any of the conspiracy theories or similar, we’ve just been completely shit.

There’s definitely some kind of bias towards the top-five teams subconsciously though (and I’m sure someone more au fait on psychology will know the term) but that comes from humans being influenced, and refs go into games knowing they’re reffing a team who are better/worse - it has to affect people. VAR should solve this by having two refs looking at things, but VAR refs are just as shit.

This is exactly where I am

I don't think there's corruption in terms of illicit backhanders, deals etc but I do think there is a bias at work which tends to make refs give the important calls in favour of the Sky Sports Six, and against the "lesser" teams in the division.

I feel like the PGMOL and refs in general have a bit of an "old boys" network going on where they'll close ranks and look after their own and bugger everyone else. Why the hell isn't there some kind of independent body holding refs and their decisions to account? At the moment they're currently marking their own homework and it isn't on

 

[Redemption]

a matter of principal

What?

I said the club should be more circumspect. It should not take risks about accusing because it is angry at decisions.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

What's wrong with questioning his integrity?

Questioning someone's integrity is fine as long as you've got some hard evidence to back it up

Sorry but the club implying Attwell deliberately made incorrect decisions based on nothing more than him being a Luton fan just didn't cut it for me

Personally I don't think Attwell was biased, I just think he's a shit ref

 

[RianBrice]

Questioning someone's integrity is fine as long as you've got some hard evidence to back it up

Sorry but the club implying Attwell deliberately made incorrect decisions based on nothing more than him being a Luton fan just didn't cut it for me

Personally I don't think Attwell was biased, I just think he's a shit ref

Hard evidence being 3 penalties?
1 unquestionably so, the other 2, decent calls. ‘Nothing more than a Luton fan’ - with Premier League survival at stake? I just think it’s ridiculous he’s even in that position, so yes, I’d question his integrity all day long.
p.s. He’s a shit ref too.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Hard evidence being 3 penalties?

Not for me, no

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

The state of the forum is horrific at the moment, 10x worse than what we mocked Everton for. This season will genuinely damage some fans, but we’re seeing this distrust across all walks of life. We’ll end up like Huddersfield fans if we don’t come back to reality, and we’ll probably take the same route on the pitch!

This is a great point.

I can see where a lot of people are coming from, and I'm glad we're sticking up for ourselves too.

But there's definitely an overlap of feeling the victim here too, something which it really isn't good to have too much of.

I want all this shit out of the way so we can just get back to football.

 

[alabamared]

What?

I said the club should be more circumspect. It should not take risks about accusing because it is angry at decisions.

You seem to change what you say depending on the post you are answering. I note you have ignored the questions I posed.
Check this ( I can't verify this but it seems to come from a decent source)

 

[Mr. Blonde]

This is a great point.

I can see where a lot of people are coming from, and I'm glad we're sticking up for ourselves too.

But there's definitely an overlap of feeling the victim here too, something which it really isn't good to have too much of.

I want all this shit out of the way so we can just get back to football.

It's not just this forum, there's a whole victim mentality coming from, and surrounding the club right now that massively doesn't sit well with me

And it'll be a hundred times worse if we do go down

 

[Robertson]

This is a great point.

I can see where a lot of people are coming from, and I'm glad we're sticking up for ourselves too.

But there's definitely an overlap of feeling the victim here too, something which it really isn't good to have too much of.

I want all this shit out of the way so we can just get back to football.

Agreed. No one will convince me we haven’t had the shitty end of the stick from the refs more often than usual this season, and I won’t forget about it. But time to move on and win some football matches.

 

[Rubics]

I thought the Halsey post above was false?

that said the Jeff winter not getting Man U for 2 1/2 years after sending Keane off was true.

 

[Rubics]

Said before up until Xmas / end of Jan I thought the decisions would even themselves out. After Liverpool I’m now of the opinion that something is not right / bent. If that makes me a victim / mentler so be it, it’s how I feel with what I’ve witnessed with my own eyes.

 

[Ashley]

I do think VAR and FFP is shit and designed to favour the Sky Sports Six. But its not just a Forest problem and 13 clubs other than ourself have to deal with this bullshit too.

I'm more annoyed at our weak mentality on the pitch, particularly the soft goals we concede and out inability to hold onto a lead. If we were actually semi-competent at set pieces and defending we wouldn't be in this mess. Our situation is still mostly self inflicted, and I want to see Forest actually stand up and give it a proper go in the last 4 games at the very least.

 

[Redemption]

You seem to change what you say depending on the post you are answering. I note you have ignored the questions I posed.
Check this

They're all sub questions for you set out your stall.

I've answered the basic Question, my other answers aren't going to provide a different view.

You seem to change what you say depending on the post you are answering

Can you show where I said it was a matter of principle?

 

[ubik]

People have claimed that Attwell supporting Luton is irrelevant to Everton v Forest, but in terms of unconscious bias it clearly isn't.

If Everton are already safe when they travel to Luton, while Forest are still in reach after being beaten, Luton can hope to survive by beating Everton.

If Forest beat Everton, chances are Everton have far more to play for when they visit Luton (and we're 3 points further ahead).

 

[alabamared]

They're all sub questions for you set out your stall.

I've answered the basic Question, my other answers aren't going to provide a different view.


Can you show where I said it was a matter of principle?

Quit the semantics that is what you have been infering all day.

 

[alabamared]

I thought the Halsey post above was false?

that said the Jeff winter not getting Man U for 2 1/2 years after sending Keane off was true.

There are various views on that.The prevailing view seems to be that the first part is correctly quoted but the bits about refs in court is not correct. But I think thre is another ref who has besically said the same as the first part.

 

[Robertson]

It’s a given that any contentious decisions made against us tomorrow will be heavily scrutinised so if the club are smart they will say nothing, and let everyone else do the talking for once. (While noting it in Mark Clattenbergs dossier for the PGMOL in the summer ). Sadly I don’t think the club will be smart and take this approach.

Conversely if we do get one go our way we should acknowledge it after the game.

Ideally no-one will be talking about the refs at all of course.

 

[The Frog]

Agreed. No one will convince me we haven’t had the shitty end of the stick from the refs more often than usual this season, and I won’t forget about it. But time to move on and win some football matches.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of cracking on and it being an unhealthy mentality it is impossible to ignore that the ‘rough end of the stick’ has had massive impacts on the outcomes of the game.

I don’t want or need to list them all as that’s been done to death but looking at Everton in isolation. We were poor. So were they. They scored two pot shots. We would have had two clear cut chances to score had it not been for a handball and foul that should have been penalties.

I just don’t think it’s as simple as dust yourself down and carry on over and over. It’s just been compounded by our own deficiencies.

 

['mist rollin in']

This is a great point.

I can see where a lot of people are coming from, and I'm glad we're sticking up for ourselves too.

But there's definitely an overlap of feeling the victim here too, something which it really isn't good to have too much of.

I want all this shit out of the way so we can just get back to football.

Agreed - I think we’re absolutely right to be standing up for ourselves, but we don’t want to look like a victim all the time. The media don’t help - the story this week has been all about Forest alleging corruption, whereas I’d argue we alleged bias. I don’t mind having a siege mentality approach, but we don’t want to be ‘woe is me’ all the time

 

[Robertson]

Whilst I agree with the sentiment of cracking on and it being an unhealthy mentality it is impossible to ignore that the ‘rough end of the stick’ has had massive impacts on the outcomes of the game.

I don’t want or need to list them all as that’s been done to death but looking at Everton in isolation. We were poor. So were they. They scored two pot shots. We would have had two clear cut chances to score had it not been for a handball and foul that should have been penalties.

I just don’t think it’s as simple as dust yourself down and carry on over and over. It’s just been compounded by our own deficiencies.

I would agree we should cut the players some slack if that’s what you’re saying. However poor some think they’ve been, they could easily be safe already.