Hillsborough Remembrance

[Alvar Hanso]

Those same turnstiles where there for many previous games and semi finals too.

The same thing happened at the 81 semi final. A crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles led to police opening gate C. 38 Spurs fans were injured on that occasion.

As a result Hillsborough wasn't asked to host an FA Cup semi final for six years. There were also near misses in 87 and 88.

 

[Mr RayReardon]

In the case of Hillsborough I thought the police had admitted that they opened gate C to alleviate the crush at the turnstiles, not because fans had forced entry.

Here in lies where the finger of 'blame' falls...

Police officer did open the wrong gate.

Consider the cause of why said officer (s) did. Out of malicious disregard go the lives of Liverpool fans already in the stadium or under pressure, without access to smart technology, from thousands of drunk, violent Liverpool ultras

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[Rockabilly]

The same thing happened at the 81 semi final. A crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles led to police opening gate C. 38 Spurs fans were injured on that occasion.

As a result Hillsborough wasn't asked to host an FA Cup semi final for six years. There were also near misses in 87 and 88.

What about all the hundreds of league matches? A lot of teams filled that end without problems.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Consider the cause of why said officer (s) did. Out of malicious disregard go the lives of Liverpool fans already in the stadium or under pressure, without access to smart technology, from thousands of drunk, violent Liverpool ultras

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This is where I am.

I don't think anyone doubts for one second the police made mistakes. I don't think for anyone doubts for one second there were cover-ups after which needed to be uncovered. I don't think anyone doubts for one second that there were a few other contributory causes like roadworks and whether Forest, with a smaller fan base, should have got the Leppings Lane end even if it meant fans crossing over.

All of that and more comes together in a melting pot of why the tragedy happened then and not in other years. Unfortunately for Liverpool their fanbase at that time is another thing to add to that melting pot, but it may also may well have been the case it happened to a different set of fans under different circumstances.

Frankly I'd just wish we could all move on and simply remember those who died going forward without bring the 'politics' into it anymore now that the official narraitive is what it is, but for the record I also don't think anyone doubts for one seconds the Liverpool fans who died were absolutely blameless. The tragedy is about them and their lives being lost, not the wider reputation of Liverpool or their fans, and I think that gets lost sometimes, and that is sad.

 

[Alvar Hanso]

Here in lies where the finger of 'blame' falls...

Police officer did open the wrong gate.

Consider the cause of why said officer (s) did. Out of malicious disregard go the lives of Liverpool fans already in the stadium or under pressure, without access to smart technology, from thousands of drunk, violent Liverpool ultras

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The police opened the right gate. The mistake was not closing the entrance to the central pens which caused the crush

 

[Dirk Furtull]

Just the thought of fans being treated like cattle, pens, gates, fencing. I remember when the fences came down it was great but thinking back now to those grim dark days, it seems a lifetime away.

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[Rigler]

A number of England fans forced entry to the European Cup final at Wembley and an even larger number did their level best to do so .
Luckily no one died.
Should we tar all England fans with responsibility for the shocking behaviour of a minority?

The vast majority of England fans condemn the behaviour of those who were behaving so appallingly at the Euro final.

The vast majority of Liverpool fans deny that there even were Liverpool fans behaving badly at Hillsborough.

 

[Red bandit]

This is where I am.

I don't think anyone doubts for one second the police made mistakes. I don't think for anyone doubts for one second there were cover-ups after which needed to be uncovered. I don't think anyone doubts for one second that there were a few other contributory causes like roadworks and whether Forest, with a smaller fan base, should have got the Leppings Lane end even if it meant fans crossing over.

All of that and more comes together in a melting pot of why the tragedy happened then and not in other years. Unfortunately for Liverpool their fanbase at that time is another thing to add to that melting pot, but it may also may well have been the case it happened to a different set of fans under different circumstances.

Frankly I'd just wish we could all move on and simply remember those who died going forward without bring the 'politics' into it anymore now that the official narraitive is what it is, but for the record I also don't think anyone doubts for one seconds the Liverpool fans who died were absolutely blameless. The tragedy is about them and their lives being lost, not the wider reputation of Liverpool or their fans, and I think that gets lost sometimes, and that is sad.

This is a top post and I hope that it will put this subject to bed.

Sure, we can dislike fans from other clubs, and we do have a long list which includes Sheffield United as well as Derby, and, back in the day, we really hated Spurs.

Dislike Liverpool fans by all means but leave Hillsborough behind us.

 

[Red Ray's Redlist]

I couldn't agree more that the innocent victims of this terrible tragedy should be remembered with great sympathy for the loss to their loved ones.

What sticks in the craw is that events have been white washed so that the unvarnished truth is now lost. The South Yorkshire police undeniably madehuge huge mistakes. But they weren't totally to blame as the accepted wisdom now seems to be. And it was leadership rather than those on the ground floor who were to blame. Having lived in Sheffield for a fair period I know of officers who were incredibly traumatised by what they encountered, officers that tried to save lives that day. That seems to be conveniently lost in the new Liverpool narrative that has arisen. The year before the police put a cordon around the ground so you couldn't get within a 100 yards of the ground without a ticket. They did this for very good reason based on past history. It wasn't there in 89. The crush outside the ground was conveniently just around kick off, and I know of pubs miles away from the ground emptying at 10 to 3, with no chance of being in the ground for the kick off. Likewise residents of Hillsborough have given up talking about the behaviour of so called fans before the kickoff because nobody wants to hear it. And then factor in the safety certification, or lack of, for the ground.

The problem with not looking for the whole picture is that solutions don't cover the relevant eventualities. The behaviour of a cowardly police leadership in not owning up to their mismanagement of the situation has meant the narrative around what happened has been horribly corrupted, and that is important both in the context of preventing other tragedies, but also the way the truth is so fluid and people are easily fooled.

 

[Alvar Hanso]

The call to open gate C came at 14:44, and was opened at 14:48. So, I don't think the 10 to 3 latecomers had any impact

 

[Barbus]

I know what I saw. Stood as I was lookong at the Leppings Lane End on the Kop.
I saw the centre pen absolutely chock full way, way, way before 3pm, while the pens either side were far less full. I'd say they were half empty when the centre one first reached capacity.
Why didn't the police and stewards also notice this?
They must have done, but did nothing about it. Had they done, or if the entrances into the terrace and concourse behind it had been better designed it wouldn't have happened.
All the talk about gate C and fans turning up at the last minute is just deflecting away from where the real cause was IMO.

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[MaxiRobriguez]

I know what I saw. Stood as I was lookong at the Leppings Lane End on the Kop.
I saw the centre pen absolutely chock full way, way, way before 3pm, while the pens either side were far less full. I'd say they were half empty when the centre one first reached capacity.
Why didn't the police and stewards also notice this?
They must have done, but did nothing about it. Had they done, or if the entrances into the terrace and concourse behind it had been better designed it wouldn't have happened.
All the talk about gate C and fans turning up at the last minute is just deflecting away from where the real cause was IMO.

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You either believe the situation was BAU and the police deliberately put hundreds of Liverpool fans in mortal danger, or you believe the situation was not normal (for a variety of reasons) and therefore optimal decision making didn't/couldn't happen.

I'll be honest I don't get the desire to dismiss impact of fans. Fan behaviour in those times was dreadful and it wasn't just Liverpool. It is a good thing it's no longer like that and unfortunately Hillsborough was the catalyst for that to get addressed.

I also wonder what I personally would feel like if I was a ticketless fan who tried to gain access on that day? I think I'd feel complete shame and remorse for my actions and acknowledge it, rather than double down blaming others. But that's just me.

 

[Alvar Hanso]

Analysis of the crowd numbers in that stand show that it had the right number of people in (according to the safety certificate).

So I think the idea that there was a large number of ticketless fans contibuting to the overcrowding is a bit of a myth.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Analysis of the crowd numbers in that stand show that it had the right number of people in (according to the safety certificate).

So I think the idea that there was a large number of ticketless fans contibuting to the overcrowding is a bit of a myth.

How many fans were still outside trying to get in though?

Genuine question. I don't know the answer.

 

[Mr RayReardon]

This is where I am.

I don't think anyone doubts for one second the police made mistakes. I don't think for anyone doubts for one second there were cover-ups after which needed to be uncovered. I don't think anyone doubts for one second that there were a few other contributory causes like roadworks and whether Forest, with a smaller fan base, should have got the Leppings Lane end even if it meant fans crossing over.

All of that and more comes together in a melting pot of why the tragedy happened then and not in other years. Unfortunately for Liverpool their fanbase at that time is another thing to add to that melting pot, but it may also may well have been the case it happened to a different set of fans under different circumstances.

Frankly I'd just wish we could all move on and simply remember those who died going forward without bring the 'politics' into it anymore now that the official narraitive is what it is, but for the record I also don't think anyone doubts for one seconds the Liverpool fans who died were absolutely blameless. The tragedy is about them and their lives being lost, not the wider reputation of Liverpool or their fans, and I think that gets lost sometimes, and that is sad.

Very well said.. absolutely spot on.

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[Alvar Hanso]

How many fans were still outside trying to get in though?

Genuine question. I don't know the answer.

I don't know either. The estimates were made at 15:08. I'm sure I've seen CCTV footage of the turnstiles around that time being empty, but I need to have a look.

 

[Statto]

What about all the hundreds of league matches? A lot of teams filled that end without problems.

Ok so the issue there was that for league matches the away fans had (and still do) the Leppings Lane end.

For the cup semi finals the Liverpool fans had the Leppings Lane end and one of the stands across the length of the pitch as well. The Forest fans had the end behind the opposite goal and the other stand.

The allocation of ends was decided by the routes to Sheffield of the opposing fans, Liverpool coming from the NW were given the west stand entrance

But the extra stand they were given, which for league games was a home end, had to also be entered from the west entrance, so the fans entering there were also filling another much larger stand with the same throughput from the turnstiles.