Financial Fair Play (FFP)

[Lord Wazzock]

Quite a few points discussed.

- They like the statement we put out, just the right balance of respect and getting our point across.
- Crazy that if we appeal the verdict could come after the last game of the season.
- Completely unfair that we get penalised (£61 allowable loss) just because we hadn't been in the PL for years.
- Makes no sense the seasons aren't aligned with accounting periods.
- Dogs using door handles (not related to us )

They're pretty sympathetic to be hohonest.

It was an interesting listen. Mark Chapman liked the clubs statement, even Rory Smith was sympathetic. Kieran Maguire seems to be well and truly in our corner too.

It does seem like the wider media is starting to call out the unfairness of PSR in the Premier league.

 

[Chappers85]

I've made this point before but look at the distribution of the major domestic trophies since 1990.

Yes, we're a mess of a club but maybe it is time the 'rest of us' stood up and said something.

Since 1992/93

League Titles (7 winners)
Man Utd 13
Man City 7
Chelsea 5
Arsenal 3
Blackburn 1
Leicester 1
Liverpool 1

FA Cup (9 winners)
Arsenal 9
Man Utd 5
Everton 1
Chelsea 7
Liverpool 3
Portsmouth 1
Man City 3
Wigan 1
Leicester 1

League Cup (12 winners)
Arsenal 1
Aston Villa 2
Liverpool 5
Leicester 2
Chelsea 4
Spurs 2
Blackburn 1
Middlesbrough 1
Man Utd 5
Birmingham 1
Swansea 1
Man City 6

1962-1992

League Winners (10 winners)
Ipswich 1
Everton 4
Liverpool 13
Man Utd 2
Man City 1
Leeds 3
Arsenal 3
Derby 2 *spit*
Forest 1
Aston Villa 1

FA Cup (15 winners)
Spurs 5
Man Utd 5
West Ham 3
Liverpool 5
Everton 2
West Brom 1
Man City 1
Chelsea 1
Leeds 1
Sunderland 1
Southampton 1
Ipswich 1
Arsenal 2
Coventry 1
Wimbledon 1

League Cup Winners (21 different winners...couldn't be arsed to write them all out. Here's the highlights: Forest 4)


I suppose we've always had dominant forces but you could get a team out of nowhere challenging with good management and a stroke of luck, and if they couldn't win the league they could win a cup. It's increasingly more and more difficult. They'll kill domestic football eventually if they continue to let this cartel hoover up all the talent and money.

 

[Chappers85]

Great tweet from Stan Collymore:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1769779035968589907

"PSR. A long read. But you'll enjoy it. Promise.

In 1992, an arbitrary line was drawn in English and European football. If you were in the "club" at that time your finances took a boost by a cause and effect cycle.

You got money from the Prem and UEFA for being at the top of those tournaments, so you have more money to spend so you stay at the top of those tables. Give or take a club or two.

So what did other clubs who wanted to be at that table do? Well I'm not going to libel myself but it's fair to say that a novel take on rules, regulations and accounting took place by some. They would argue that was the only way to get into the club. It worked, because not only did those "wannabe" clubs attract investment ( mostly after being shit forever but in a "big" market to use an Americanism), they blew the doors off the system.

That didn't go unnoticed by many other clubs, their less than patient owners and a general attitude of "can our risk be more rewarding than the potential punishment "?. Some have just about managed to buck the system, most haven't. Take a look at a Championship and League 1 riddled with the bodies of Champions League Semi Finalists, Premier League winners and huge clubs with big dreams.

So to the Premier League...

Their intentions are admirable. Stop clubs going tits up due to their owners being glorified 12 year olds in a sweet shop. My club had 2 shit owners, and I'm confident at some point your club did to. That's how broken the system is at protecting clubs from themselves at times.

But the admirable intentions didn't factor in one major thing. The "top 6" benefitted from almost zero financial regulation for decades, made a shit ton of money by being in the right position at the right time from 1992-2000 give or take, beneficiaries of a "lock in" that still exists today.

So any financial fair play or adherence to sensible fiscal rules had to be in the context of "how do clubs who weren't at the 1992 table get a seat at it without engaging owners willing to bankroll to enormous and often reckless levels?" In my opinion the Premier League never factored this in, so created a system, that if it were implemented on day 1 of the Premier League, would possibly work well, but 30 years after a small number of clubs filled their boots with cash? No chance.

We need strong and punitive financial rules. That's clear.

But we need a system that allows clubs to grow, invest, spend and compete to get into the top 6, otherwise the perception, whether based on reality ( I don't think it is for what it's worth) or not, is that the deep football state ( ooooo, political reference) has created a puppet in Masters ( or Scudamore before him) who's only job is to maintain the status quo, keep enriching the big clubs forever while punishing equally as big but recently less successful than the current "big 6".

What that system is, I've no idea, but one has to be created or Forest and Everton's plight will be replicated as clubs push and blur lines even more in the chase to "get to the summit".

A competition can only exist if every participant plays on and off the pitch subject to the same rules and spirit.

That blatantly hasn't been the case in the Premier League nor UEFA club competitions since 1992. It's why a lock in was created to enhance the clout and success of big city clubs and is why...

Barcelona had fewer European Champions Cups than Nottingham Forest going into the new Champions League. That could not, by any means be allowed to stand.

And unless the Premier League and UEFA factor in the arbitrary "success" line they created in 1992 and since, and how some clubs immediately benefited because they were competitive at that time, which created a cabal, then all the rules that they now make, amend and ditch won't make an iota of difference.

Because every club should feel it has a shot at the title, and currently the set up in the Premier League does not allow this."

 

[Alan Akbah]

No point bleating, leave the whining to the Scousers.

I'm old enough to remember only getting out of League One automatically in 2008 because Leeds got docked 15 points.

Swallow it and move on. £34.5m is a big breach and it could have been a lot worse.

I'm more bothered that Marinakis binned Steve Cooper for no tangible benefit that I can see.

 

[Strummer]

Since 1992/93

League Titles (7 winners)
Man Utd 13
Man City 7
Chelsea 5
Arsenal 3
Blackburn 1
Leicester 1
Liverpool 1

FA Cup (9 winners)
Arsenal 9
Man Utd 5
Everton 1
Chelsea 7
Liverpool 3
Portsmouth 1
Man City 3
Wigan 1
Leicester 1

League Cup (12 winners)
Arsenal 1
Aston Villa 2
Liverpool 5
Leicester 2
Chelsea 4
Spurs 2
Blackburn 1
Middlesbrough 1
Man Utd 5
Birmingham 1
Swansea 1
Man City 6

1962-1992

League Winners (10 winners)
Ipswich 1
Everton 4
Liverpool 13
Man Utd 2
Man City 1
Leeds 3
Arsenal 3
Derby 2 *spit*
Forest 1
Aston Villa 1

FA Cup (15 winners)
Spurs 5
Man Utd 5
West Ham 3
Liverpool 5
Everton 2
West Brom 1
Man City 1
Chelsea 1
Leeds 1
Sunderland 1
Southampton 1
Ipswich 1
Arsenal 2
Coventry 1
Wimbledon 1

League Cup Winners (21 different winners...couldn't be arsed to write them all out. Here's the highlights: Forest 4)


I suppose we've always had dominant forces but you could get a team out of nowhere challenging with good management and a stroke of luck, and if they couldn't win the league they could win a cup. It's increasingly more and more difficult. They'll kill domestic football eventually if they continue to let this cartel hoover up all the talent and money.

That is a cracking post. And a damning indictment of how English football has been effectively hijacked by investors.

 

[Redemption]

No point bleating, leave the whining yo the Scousers.

I'm old enough to remember only getting out of League One automatically in 2008 because Leeds got docked 15 points.

Swallow it and move on. £34.5m is a big breach and it could have been a lot worse.

I'm more bothered that Marinakis binned Steve Cooper for no tangible benefit as long as far as I can see.

Alan Akbah is thatvyou I can see through the mists of time?

 

[Green Jumper]

Point of order on the report: it stated Forest were forecasting 23/24 losses of £12-17M. Granted that forecast may lack a certain level of credibility right now, but the assumption is that this calculation was based on the Johnson sale proceeds being included in the 22/23 results as per their argument.

If that cash is instead allocated to 23/24, we could be looking at a £30m profit instead.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Done now isn't it? Speculation can stop now and all the arguments for and against. Move on and move forward

Problem is it isn’t done now - they form part of our rolling 3 year accounts for this year as well - so we are £30m worse off than we thought we would be because we thought we were exempt.
Different reasons - but that is part of why Everton are still in trouble

 

[RianBrice]

Well we all enjoy the debate about taking an easy pink or a tight brown, so maybe decide yourself old cucumber?

Easy pink, or tight brown… ummmm, sounds just the ticket.

 

[ubik]

No point bleating, leave the whining yo the Scousers.

I'm old enough to remember only getting out of League One automatically in 2008 because Leeds got docked 15 points.

Swallow it and move on. £34.5m is a big breach and it could have been a lot worse.

I'm more bothered that Marinakis binned Steve Cooper for no tangible benefit as long as far as I can see.

Leeds waited till the second half of the last game of the season when they were sure to be relegated, then went into administration as the 10 point penalty wouldn't affect them the following season, they were already down.

Their owner then sold the club for £1 to (I believe) another of his offshore companies.

I don't think any 'cheating' attributed to us comes in the same universe as that.

 

[andyd]

I can't bring myself to read back over 40 pages of thoughts so I will just say this.

It doesn't feel completely fair because the rules aren't fair, but that's the way it is.

There are 9 games left. If we can't better Luton Town by 1 point and 3 goals over those 9 games then we deserve to go down.

If we appeal fine, but if we're relegated a point behind another team with the season having ended I guarantee they aren't giving us points back to relegate someone else at that point, so why bother?

Get out there, do what we have to do to stay up, then move on, sort our crap out and kick on into the future on and off the pitch. Over to the players.

 

[Bobby The Brain]

But also getting stuff factually wrong like saying our losses were bigger than Wverton’s, they amount over our(lower) limit was but the absolute loss was not. Also very annoying that those on the panel don’t know the basic facts and dates in the process etc - you know it will be discussed, do your research.

Fair enough. You’re talking brush strokes there though, I just liked the picture.

 

[Alan Akbah]

Leeds waited till the second half of the last game of the season when they were sure to be relegated, then went into administration as the 10 point penalty wouldn't affect them the following season, they were already down.

Their owner then sold the club for £1 to (I believe) another of his offshore companies.

I don't think any 'cheating' attributed to us comes in the same universe as that.

I'm not talking about them cheating, I'm just saying that sometimes it works in your favour and you don't whine when it does.

We are one point behind Luton. If we can't make that up with 27 points on the table then we don't deserve to stay up

 

[Stocky Red]

Yes.

We played our part in defending the Pyramid.

That's the hypocrisy.

We don't like the Big 6, or whatever you want to call them, because they want to internalise as much money as they can.

But if we deal with the unfairness it will cost them money.

It's the same thing.

Yep, I suppose self interests alway trump the wider good, unless you have enough money to be puritanical

 

[ubik]

I'm not talking about them cheating, I'm just saying that sometimes it works in your favour and you don't whine when it does.

We are one point behind Luton. If we can't make that up with 27 points in the tabe then we don't deserve to stay up

OK, except for

"£34.5m is a big breach and it could have been a lot worse"

It wasn't a big breach when we were waiting to sell BJ for £47.5 million. A lot seems to rest on us keeping the EPL informed about this and being assured it was OK.

 

[Alan Akbah]

OK, except for

"£34.5m is a big breach and it could have been a lot worse"

It wasn't a big breach when we were waiting to sell BJ for £47.5 million. A lot seems to rest on us keeping the EPL informed about this and being assured it was OK.

I don't run my business's affairs down to the wire and Marinakis shouldn't have done that either.

Only one person is responsible. He took a risk and lost.

 

[Morpeth]

But also getting stuff factually wrong like saying our losses were bigger than Wverton’s, they amount over our(lower) limit was but the absolute loss was not. Also very annoying that those on the panel don’t know the basic facts and dates in the process etc - you know it will be discussed, do your research.

Chappers didn’t even know if it was PSR or PSL.

 

[Gyros Peter]

I don't run my business's affairs down to the wire and Marinakis shouldn't have done that either.

Only one person is responsible. He took a risk and lost.

Lost four points.

While I don't really agree with the way things have been done there is a bigger picture here that means we are still in the top flight now and may well be next year. I'll be judging just how idiotic come seasons end.

 

[WallyBazoom]

Comment from the left wing rag:

"For now the moral of this story is obvious enough. Forest fans love Evangelos Marinakis because he is decisive and charismatic, because he acts and looks like the imperial commander of the intergalactic pirate fleet, and above all because he has brought success. But the fact remains this is still a case of taking your medicine"

Supporters should blame club owners – not the rules – for points deductions | Barney Ronay

Clubs may not like what they sign up to and object to the extent of sanctions, but cannot cry corruption if rules are transparent

www.theguardian.com

 

[ubik]

I don't run my business's affairs down to the wire and Marinakis shouldn't have done that either.

Only one person is responsible. He took a risk and lost.

Point taken, but football is an unusual business.

Levy kept us waiting (maybe because he was waiting for the Kane transfer money).

We were entitled to wait to get the best deal for us (financial consideration) and for the player (human consideration). I'm glad we did the right thing.

 

[Alan Akbah]

Great tweet from Stan Collymore:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1769779035968589907

"PSR. A long read. But you'll enjoy it. Promise.

In 1992, an arbitrary line was drawn in English and European football. If you were in the "club" at that time your finances took a boost by a cause and effect cycle.

You got money from the Prem and UEFA for being at the top of those tournaments, so you have more money to spend so you stay at the top of those tables. Give or take a club or two.

So what did other clubs who wanted to be at that table do? Well I'm not going to libel myself but it's fair to say that a novel take on rules, regulations and accounting took place by some. They would argue that was the only way to get into the club. It worked, because not only did those "wannabe" clubs attract investment ( mostly after being shit forever but in a "big" market to use an Americanism), they blew the doors off the system.

That didn't go unnoticed by many other clubs, their less than patient owners and a general attitude of "can our risk be more rewarding than the potential punishment "?. Some have just about managed to buck the system, most haven't. Take a look at a Championship and League 1 riddled with the bodies of Champions League Semi Finalists, Premier League winners and huge clubs with big dreams.

So to the Premier League...

Their intentions are admirable. Stop clubs going tits up due to their owners being glorified 12 year olds in a sweet shop. My club had 2 shit owners, and I'm confident at some point your club did to. That's how broken the system is at protecting clubs from themselves at times.

But the admirable intentions didn't factor in one major thing. The "top 6" benefitted from almost zero financial regulation for decades, made a shit ton of money by being in the right position at the right time from 1992-2000 give or take, beneficiaries of a "lock in" that still exists today.

So any financial fair play or adherence to sensible fiscal rules had to be in the context of "how do clubs who weren't at the 1992 table get a seat at it without engaging owners willing to bankroll to enormous and often reckless levels?" In my opinion the Premier League never factored this in, so created a system, that if it were implemented on day 1 of the Premier League, would possibly work well, but 30 years after a small number of clubs filled their boots with cash? No chance.

We need strong and punitive financial rules. That's clear.

But we need a system that allows clubs to grow, invest, spend and compete to get into the top 6, otherwise the perception, whether based on reality ( I don't think it is for what it's worth) or not, is that the deep football state ( ooooo, political reference) has created a puppet in Masters ( or Scudamore before him) who's only job is to maintain the status quo, keep enriching the big clubs forever while punishing equally as big but recently less successful than the current "big 6".

What that system is, I've no idea, but one has to be created or Forest and Everton's plight will be replicated as clubs push and blur lines even more in the chase to "get to the summit".

A competition can only exist if every participant plays on and off the pitch subject to the same rules and spirit.

That blatantly hasn't been the case in the Premier League nor UEFA club competitions since 1992. It's why a lock in was created to enhance the clout and success of big city clubs and is why...

Barcelona had fewer European Champions Cups than Nottingham Forest going into the new Champions League. That could not, by any means be allowed to stand.

And unless the Premier League and UEFA factor in the

arbitrary "success" line they created in 1992 and since, and how some clubs immediately benefited because they were competitive at that time, which created a cabal, then all the rules that they now make, amend and ditch won't make an iota of difference.

Because every club should feel it has a shot at the title, and currently the set up in the Premier League does not allow this."

Not the first time he's landed a punch right on the nose

 

[Gyros Peter]

I'll add as well - lots of noise over the BJ sale, but we stayed up by the same four points we've just lost last year due to the January investment.

Yes some shite was a part of that, but without a few we'd already be down. Does that mean we've already won? Probably not, but it puts the gamble/battle on staying up this year into context.

 

[magicwoand]

I don't run my business's affairs down to the wire and Marinakis shouldn't have done that either.

Only one person is responsible. He took a risk and lost.

Well his gamble worked out last season, if we had't invested in January we would have been playing Championship football this season. We should have gotten enough points already this season to make the 4 point penalty irrelevant, but we haven't. As you say there's 9 games for us to make it irrelevant now.

 

[ubik]

Comment from the left wing rag:

"For now the moral of this story is obvious enough. Forest fans love Evangelos Marinakis because he is decisive and charismatic, because he acts and looks like the imperial commander of the intergalactic pirate fleet, and above all because he has brought success. But the fact remains this is still a case of taking your medicine"

Supporters should blame club owners – not the rules – for points deductions | Barney Ronay

Clubs may not like what they sign up to and object to the extent of sanctions, but cannot cry corruption if rules are transparent

www.theguardian.com

No comments allowed on that article, sadly. Don't agree with some of it.

 

[Robertson]

Comment from the left wing rag:

"For now the moral of this story is obvious enough. Forest fans love Evangelos Marinakis because he is decisive and charismatic, because he acts and looks like the imperial commander of the intergalactic pirate fleet, and above all because he has brought success. But the fact remains this is still a case of taking your medicine"

Supporters should blame club owners – not the rules – for points deductions | Barney Ronay

Clubs may not like what they sign up to and object to the extent of sanctions, but cannot cry corruption if rules are transparent

www.theguardian.com

Bunch of f***ing Premier League bootlickers writing for the Guardian. They all know which side their bread’s buttered. In my humble opinion.