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Academy Development Thread - sponsored by BryanRoy!

T

Timothy Pope

I know that Nuno that I know that Nuno that I know
Jorge Grant & Ben Brereton came through under GB - although I think both were pilfered from other academies.
 
DizzyBala

DizzyBala

Jack Armstrong
Seems like Gary appreciates the support that some of us had for the work he's done for us at the club, still rankles that he didn't any public acknowledgement on his departure. Instrumental in bringing the likes of Brennan, Cash, Burke, Appiah and Brereton through that youth team.

We might come to need the YT again at some point, so I just hope whatever we have in place now is sufficent to keep that production line rolling.

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1646196116487061504
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1686468785673265153
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1697577090814538126
 
Thomas

Thomas

AMERICAN IDIOT
I truly couldn’t be arsed anymore, its forest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Any Time Now

Any Time Now

Grenville Morris
Another one of our youngsters jumped ship, first Hemmings to Villa and now Blake to Derby the current state of our academy is a shambles. Yet another example of something that has been neglected and disregarded under this ownership and will come to cost us heavily
 
Statto

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
Any Time Now said:
Another one of our youngsters jumped ship, first Hemmings to Villa and now Blake to Derby the current state of our academy is a shambles. Yet another example of something that has been neglected and disregarded under this ownership and will come to cost us heavily
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Doubt either of them would make our PL squad/team anyway.

Joe Gardner only got close because of the AFCON situation
 
It's Baggio

It's Baggio

John Robertson
Statto said:
Doubt either of them would make our PL squad/team anyway.

Joe Gardner only got close because of the AFCON situation
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I don't think 16 year old's were ever expected to make our PL squad. However, it looks as though we've lost our biggest talent from this years scholarship intake to Derby, after losing our best talent (Hemmings) last year to Villa.

You could somewhat understand losing a player to Villa as they throw a lot of money at their academy (they've pillaged WBA for example) but to lose one to Derby, who've made cutbacks since they went into admin, is a blow.
 
Statto

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
It's Baggio said:
I don't think 16 year old's were ever expected to make our PL squad. However, it looks as though we've lost our biggest talent from this years scholarship intake to Derby, after losing our best talent (Hemmings) last year to Villa.

You could somewhat understand losing a player to Villa as they throw a lot of money at their academy (they've pillaged WBA for example) but to lose one to Derby, who've made cutbacks since they went into admin, is a blow.
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I don't think anyone is expecting 16 yr olds to be anywhere near the PL, well not at 16 anyway. But maybe at 19/20/21 you'd be expecting them to have progressed enough.

In reality I don't think we have too many in the age group sides in that category at the moment, so it's likely that for a few years, the idea of having academy players come through and make it into the team and then be sold for a lot of money (e.g. Cash, Johnson, Worrall, Appiah) will probably end when Ryan Yates moves on and I think not only is he the only one from the promotion squad still at the club but also he's the only academy player near the first team squad.

I know players making the first team here isn't the entire end game of the academy and that players can go on to first team slots elsewhere (as we have ended up doing with Neco for example) but unless we get relegated there's no way the likes of Osong, Norkett, Nadin, etc will make it in our first team - we have players of a similar age (Elanga, Murillo and Omo for example) in the squad but we've bought them in and our own players in that group (Back and Mighten) are on loan in what, League 1 or 2?

So we're basically developing first team players for EFL clubs at the moment...
 
It's Baggio

It's Baggio

John Robertson
Statto said:
I don't think anyone is expecting 16 yr olds to be anywhere near the PL, well not at 16 anyway. But maybe at 19/20/21 you'd be expecting them to have progressed enough.
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Well Hemmings has just turned 17 & Blake is 15/16. So still a few years away from deciding whether or not they'd get in our 'PL squad/team'.

We probably don't have many that have PL potential currently, we'll have even fewer if we continue to lose the ones that are representing England prior to signing a pro deal.
 
GreeksBearingGifts

GreeksBearingGifts

Stuart Pearce
Statto said:
So we're basically developing first team players for EFL clubs at the moment...
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Sorry to be blunt, but it will take years, serious planning, excellent scouting, a lot of money, and plenty of luck for your academy to be producing anything other than EFL football, which is basically what it has been doing, extremely successfully, so far. Do not kid yourselves: the reason so many of your academy graduates went on to the first team, progressed, and managed to play (and still play) in the Premier is precisely the fact that you were an EFL club who could afford (and often had to) use talented youngsters. It is extremely more difficult for the academy to produce 20-year-olds who are ready to play for a Premier club fighting for relegation. Your amazing record of continuously listing academy graduates for decades will, eventually, end soon. If you become an established Premier club and really invest in the academy, in a few years, you may be able to produce players for the first team again.

Please do not shoot the messenger.
 
Statto

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
It's Baggio said:
Well Hemmings has just turned 17 & Blake is 15/16. So still a few years away from deciding whether or not they'd get in our 'PL squad/team'.

We probably don't have many that have PL potential currently, we'll have even fewer if we continue to lose the ones that are representing England prior to signing a pro deal.
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Representing the England age group sides doesn't mean an awful lot anyway.

Look at the side which Cooper famously managed to a title, Ok so there are some established PL players in there like Foden, MGW, CHO but where are the rest?

And these lads were not only considered the best in England for their age but also won a title against other lads the same age.

There are plenty of kids who have come through our academy who at that age might have been considered with a high chance of making the first team. Some of them did, others who you might not have though would, did, and some who looked almost nailed on didn't. It's one thing standing out at age group level and something completely different doing the same as an 18/19 yr old against players in their early 30s for example.

The club can't control if a player decides to leave for another academy. But they would be tracking their progression and presumably have a likely level which they will reach, probably based on other players. At their age it would be difficult to see whether the two who have left would have made the first team for us either in the PL or in the Championship. But there could have been other factors at play like Blake being at Derby and seeing there that they have had to play more of the kids such as SIbley and Thompson who have been playing in their first team squad for a few years now (Thompson is a Nottm lad) and maybe sees he can progress more quickly into a first team environment at a lower division club, which is logical.

The club don't often get this kind of thing wrong. Brereton (who wasn't ours to begin with) for 7m after a handful of games. Appiah sold for big money after little. Bamford brought in a lot when we needed to sell. Then the first team sales like Cash, Johnson. How many have we let go who have ended up making it at CH or PL level? When you think back to obvious ones like Barton and SWP they were in the 90s...
 
donny

donny

Grenville Morris
Statto said:
Representing the England age group sides doesn't mean an awful lot anyway.

Look at the side which Cooper famously managed to a title, Ok so there are some established PL players in there like Foden, MGW, CHO but where are the rest?
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The England Squad from that tournament.

[1] Curtis Anderson - Man City, now Kendal Town. (GK)
[2] Tim Eyoma - Spurs, now Lincoln City.
[3] Lewis Gibson - Newcastle, now Plymouth
[4] George McEachern - Chelsea, now Swindon
[5] Marc Guehi - Chelsea, now Crystal Palace *
[6] Jonathan Panzo - Chelsea, now Liege on loan from Forest
[7] Philip Foden - Man City *
[8] Tashan Oakley-Boothe - Spurs, now CF Estrela
[9] Rhian Brewster - Liverpool, now Sheff Utd *
[10] Angel Gomes - Man United, now Lille
[11] Jaden Sancho - Man City, now Dortmund on loan from Man Utd *
[12] Nya Kirby - Spurs, now Oxford City.
[13] Joe Bursik - Stoke, now Club Brugge (GK)
[14] Callum Hudson-Odoi - Chelsea, now Forest *
[15] Joel Latibeaudiere - Man City, now Coventry
[16] Daniel Loader - Reading, now FC Porto
[17] Emile Smith-Rowe - Arsenal *
[18] Steven Sessegnon - Fulham, now Wigan
[19] Morgan Gibbs-White - Wolves, now Forest *
[20] Conor Gallagher - Chelsea *
[21] William Crellin - Fleetwood, now Everton (GK)

Out of those 21 players, 8 have played PL football this season, and another couple are playing at a decent level in European top flights.
 
Statto

Statto

Free Kick Specialist
donny said:
The England Squad from that tournament.

[1] Curtis Anderson - Man City, now Kendal Town. (GK)
[2] Tim Eyoma - Spurs, now Lincoln City.
[3] Lewis Gibson - Newcastle, now Plymouth
[4] George McEachern - Chelsea, now Swindon
[5] Marc Guehi - Chelsea, now Crystal Palace *
[6] Jonathan Panzo - Chelsea, now Liege on loan from Forest
[7] Philip Foden - Man City *
[8] Tashan Oakley-Boothe - Spurs, now CF Estrela
[9] Rhian Brewster - Liverpool, now Sheff Utd *
[10] Angel Gomes - Man United, now Lille
[11] Jaden Sancho - Man City, now Dortmund on loan from Man Utd *
[12] Nya Kirby - Spurs, now Oxford City.
[13] Joe Bursik - Stoke, now Club Brugge (GK)
[14] Callum Hudson-Odoi - Chelsea, now Forest *
[15] Joel Latibeaudiere - Man City, now Coventry
[16] Daniel Loader - Reading, now FC Porto
[17] Emile Smith-Rowe - Arsenal *
[18] Steven Sessegnon - Fulham, now Wigan
[19] Morgan Gibbs-White - Wolves, now Forest *
[20] Conor Gallagher - Chelsea *
[21] William Crellin - Fleetwood, now Everton (GK)

Out of those 21 players, 8 have played PL football this season, and another couple are playing at a decent level in European top flights.
Click to expand...
Yes, precisely. So 8 of them are PL players and a couple in other European top flights, out of 22 who were at the time considered the best English players in their age group.

Out of the current PL players, there's perhaps only a few who have caps for the senior team - Guehi, Gallagher, ESR, Foden, Sancho... CHO was capped in 19 but not since probably more due to injury than ability. But these were the top English players at 17 who won a tournament saying they were the best of their age group in the world too, and some of them are now playing for Oxford City, Swindon and Kendal Town.

It's like the famous 92 side from Man Utd, so yeah we all know the likes of Beckham, Butt, Neville (plus Phil Neville who was a bit younger and Giggs who was older) all had established top level careers (even though ultimately P Nev and Butt had to leave for other clubs) but of the rest? Kevin Pilkington was a decent enough lower division keeper. John O'Shea and Robbie Savage had top flight careers too, even though Savage had to go back through the system with Crewe. But George Switzer, Ben Thornley, Colin McKee, Chris Casper (and Richard Irving from the year after who ended up signing for us)...

Another interesting point relating to the above England side, is how many others of that age group (mainly '00s) have managed to get into the England squad despite not being considered an age group stand out player as a kid.
 
congo_red_49

congo_red_49

Ale Ape
Not sure exactly what happened but last nights academy game against Reading was abandoned after an injury to Ben Perry - I’m assuming it would have to be something very serious for the game to be abandoned, so hope he’s ok.
 
M

MaxiRobriguez

Bob McKinlay
GreeksBearingGifts said:
Sorry to be blunt, but it will take years, serious planning, excellent scouting, a lot of money, and plenty of luck for your academy to be producing anything other than EFL football, which is basically what it has been doing, extremely successfully, so far. Do not kid yourselves: the reason so many of your academy graduates went on to the first team, progressed, and managed to play (and still play) in the Premier is precisely the fact that you were an EFL club who could afford (and often had to) use talented youngsters. It is extremely more difficult for the academy to produce 20-year-olds who are ready to play for a Premier club fighting for relegation. Your amazing record of continuously listing academy graduates for decades will, eventually, end soon. If you become an established Premier club and really invest in the academy, in a few years, you may be able to produce players for the first team again.

Please do not shoot the messenger.
Click to expand...

It's a fair point.

Players like Worrall and Yates took time to adapt to the level below. They've been first team players for 5-6 years before they came up with us and even then some posters on here don't think either are good enough for the PL. Johnson's a bit of a one-off, you can't bank on producing a player like him every couple of years.

As long as we're at this level we won't have the time or space to afford young players the chance to learn their trade in the first team. It's too competitive a league, too much at stake whilst Forest remain a relegation threatened side. That's exacerbated by the fact we're an East Midlands club and our geographical reach in terms of population size is quite small. We're not going to tempt solid PL prospects away from big population centres because those places have a plethora of PL clubs with better academies than ours. Even minor population centres near us like Lincoln players might choose Sheff Utd if there's a route to first team, or Grantham based players might choose Leicester for the facilities.

We're kind of stuck in terms of producing PL players from very young academy ages without serious investment, and even then there's no guarantees there'll be any pay-off.

If I was Forest I'd probably have a two-tier approach:
1) Fight hard for the very best players from our direct local area (Nottingham, Mansfield, Derby, Loughborough) from young ages
2) Strategically target some 14/15/16 year old kids who've been released from Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City academies who might not make the grade for top six clubs but who have the potential to do a job in the bottom half.

Plenty of decent players released from top acadamies; Dwight McNeil got released from Man Utd in 2014, Joe Rothwell did a couple years later. Declan Rice got released by Chelsea when he was 14...
 
donny

donny

Grenville Morris
congo_red_49 said:
Not sure exactly what happened but last nights academy game against Reading was abandoned after an injury to Ben Perry - I’m assuming it would have to be something very serious for the game to be abandoned, so hope he’s ok.
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Believe it was down to ambulance cover. They couldn't get an ambulance to replace the one that took Ben to hospital.
 
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