Academy Development Thread - sponsored by BryanRoy!

[Rzar]

Whilst that may be true, neglecting this area of the club is a bad idea IMO. It dug us out of the shinola many a times in the past, it may have to again one day.

Losing Gaz Braz was/is a huge blow to the club IMO, and if we're losing by 6 goals to the sheep then we've not really addressed his departure very well.

But the age group you are critising is the one Brazil has assembled. With youth development there is a 2-3 year lag.

I don't know how you can say we are neglecting it based on a loss against Derby. We have never invested more into the youth setup than we are doing. The bar is higher now, we are playing against better sides & have a better side ourself for players to break into.

Apparently Nuno never saw his youth side play during his 4 years at Wolves.
If true suggests less emphasis on breeding our own.

And this is bollocks because he gave 7 players their senior debuts during his 4 years at Wolves. Not including cup appearences, that's league only I am counting.

 

[Statto]

Looks like you could easily argue that the well has been dry for a while. Few of those nearing the age when they should be playing first team football look likely to get a game in the Championship, let alone the Premier League. That's not happened since GazBraz left the club, it was happening before it.

Thing is that if you look at it right now and see that for example the current crop of 19 yr olds may not have any obvious first team candidates...

First off the measure of "first team candidates" has gone up considerably from 2 years ago. So a kid who was 17 then and might have been considered with improvement to be a first team player potentially in 2 years time, is now a lot further off this. Example is Fin Back who isn't a bad player at all and was Spence's back up in the promotion side, So he's had an injury or two but was on loan at Carlisle, if we'd not gone up and not signed Spence he might have been in the first team for us. Of his age group (02s) and the one below it's mainly players we bought - Norwich lad, Elanga, Christina Aguilera, Murillo, Dale Taylor, Mighten, Donnelly.

The 04s did well getting to the FA youth cup final in 22 (likes of Osong, Nadin, and also Manni Norkett) but when you consider one of the opponents that day, who believe it or not with the tats and the fact he has a child already is also an 04 born, and is a smunt but is one of the stand out players at his PL club this season, it shows how far off ours are.

If we signed entry level kids, now, I don't know how young they usually take them (it's not Epstein's island) but I think Callum Hudson-Odoi was at Whitgift until 14, so year 9, before going full time in Chelsea's academy, and if that's typical they won't be taking kids seriously much lower than about 12/13/14, and assuming that us being higher in the league now means we could attract ahead of our friends down the Fosse, we wouldn't be seeing a scholar starting y10 who's possibly just 14 in anywhere near first team contention for another 3-4 years (this is not Rochdale) which is when you'd largely see the benefit of that shift coming in, so we have also brought in others like Donnelly and Taylor but they're the exception really,

I'm sure posts up thread here would be talking still about the 97s (Iacovitti, Worrall, Yates) and then the 01s (Johnson, Dekel), 02s (Mighten) as prospects from their mid teens and not all of them worked out did it?

Brazil was responsible for all of this up until recently. The lack of talent coming through happened under his development, though he is probably not responsible for it, we probably just couldn't attract good enough players.

Hard to see who the next one will be - I'm going to pull the Garnacchunt card again to say that Nadin and Osong would be more progressed than they are to be a PL player (but then Yates needed loans up the leagues and a promotion to be one), Joe Gardner is a decent lad but the same age, then there's Josh Powell who got some time in pre season, then probably Zach Abbott who's an 06. In all likelihood, none of them will play over 20 PL matches for us.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

You say we're neglecting it but it might be that the kids just aren't developing. That does happen.

I remember there was a massive panic at Liverpool at some point - maybe 10-12 years ago as they had literally produces no player of note from their academy since Gerrard.

They've done alright in the last few years, but they did have a bit of a drought. You can guarantee that wasnt because they were neglecting the academy.

Sure, Gaz Braz produced gem after gem, year after year and now he's gone that's all stopped.

Sure it's just a coincidence.

 

[Redemption]

Sure, Gaz Braz produced gem after gem, year after year and now he's gone that's all stopped.

Sure it's just a coincidence.

Gaz Braz's production line came to a very slow halt with Brennan Johnson.

Not one of the player's who came to the academy under his guidance came out of it.

I don't want to disrespect GB, did massive things for our club over his decade. But lets not beatify for miracles that didn't happen.






 

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Gaz Braz's production line came to a very slow halt with Brennan Johnson.

Not one of the player's who came to the academy under his guidance came out of it.

I don't want to disrespect GB, did massive things for our club over his decade. But lets not beatify for miracles that didn't happen.






 

Yeah, he just lost it. Nothing to do with the way the club was/has been run. Gaz Braz just miraculously turned bad.

 

[RedRobbo]

But the age group you are critising is the one Brazil has assembled. With youth development there is a 2-3 year lag.

I don't know how you can say we are neglecting it based on a loss against Derby. We have never invested more into the youth setup than we are doing. The bar is higher now, we are playing against better sides & have a better side ourself for players to break into.

And this is bollocks because he gave 7 players their senior debuts during his 4 years at Wolves. Not including cup appearences, that's league only I am counting.

Fair enough - good to hear
( Though doesn’t necessarily disprove the story of his personal non attendance at youth games )

 

[Statto]

Tbf how many Academy players did cooper give a debut to? I think Johnson played his first game under Lamouchi in that West Brom game, then went on loan. Mighten played under Hughton. Back played under Hughton. There's Abbott, but that was a cup game.

 

[Rzar]

Yeah, he just lost it. Nothing to do with the way the club was/has been run. Gaz Braz just miraculously turned bad.

So was it successfully run under Fawaz was it?

The academy produced good players before GB & it will produce good players after him. It also doesn't mean we are going to produce quality players every year, there will be spells of good and bad. We are competing at Cat 1 level now and a PL club, not cat 2 as a Championship club. Completely different ball game.

 

[Redemption]

Yeah, he just lost it. Nothing to do with the way the club was/has been run. Gaz Braz just miraculously turned bad.

The best players that came out of the club in the last 10 years all. Joined and were nurtured during the fawaz era. It was a f***ing circus.

Brenan Johnson joined the academy 5 years before Brazil came to the club. Of all the players who came through or were sold on, most had arrived before GB.

Worral, 3 years. Yates, 8 years. Twisty, 9 years. Osborne, 10 years. Yada, yada.

Only Matty Cash, who arrived on the cusp of Brazil arriving, and was 16 already is probably the only player who was concurrent to Brazil and made any money.

Barely any of the later crop, who had their entire academy time under Brazil will make it in the game or return us any money. Even the later scholarship players like Dale Taylor won't progress.

That's not disrespecting Brazil. It's just the way academies are.

It's silly stuff to to think he performed miracles. Apart from the miracle of persisting under Fawaz.

 

[incident]

Tbf how many Academy players did cooper give a debut to? I think Johnson played his first game under Lamouchi in that West Brom game, then went on loan. Mighten played under Hughton. Back played under Hughton. There's Abbott, but that was a cup game.

Not in the League, but Cooper gave a debut to Billy Fewster at Blackpool a year ago. He was supposed to be the next big thing, and reportedly other academies were trying to poach him.

Six months later, following a failed loan spell where the manager basically accused him of having no bottle, he was released and is now at Alfreton Town.

There'll be a few others if you also include the League Cup - the team we sent to Grimsby last year was very, very young.

 

[Statto]

Not in the League, but Cooper gave a debut to Billy Fewster at Blackpool a year ago. He was supposed to be the next big thing, and reportedly other academies were trying to poach him.

Six months later, following a failed loan spell where the manager basically accused him of having no bottle, he was released and is now at Alfreton Town.

There'll be a few others if you also include the League Cup - the team we sent to Grimsby last year was very, very young.

Yes, so we're talking one match in the LC against a side in what, League 2, who we should be expected to beat anyway, and a FA cup match where we rested a few and lost anyway.

I guess that's partially influenced by the fact there isn't anyone, but the idea that Cooper, who has a reputation for developing young players, didn't actually promote anyone from the academy into the first team either, save from the odd cup appearance. But the young players he used were brought in and primarily ones he'd worked before at England (CHO, MGW) or Liverpool (Williams) and crucially were older and had come through more established PL academies.

Players who come through don't come in for a transfer fee so i'd assume most managers would want to progress those who are good enough.

 

[Gyros Peter]

Yes, so we're talking one match in the LC against a side in what, League 2, who we should be expected to beat anyway, and a FA cup match where we rested a few and lost anyway.

I guess that's partially influenced by the fact there isn't anyone, but the idea that Cooper, who has a reputation for developing young players, didn't actually promote anyone from the academy into the first team either, save from the odd cup appearance. But the young players he used were brought in and primarily ones he'd worked before at England (CHO, MGW) or Liverpool (Williams) and crucially were older and had come through more established PL academies.

Players who come through don't come in for a transfer fee so i'd assume most managers would want to progress those who are good enough.

Johnson?

 

[Statto]

Johnson?

I mentioned that earlier.

His debut was under Lamouchi in the opening day vs WBA. They then sent him on loan the season after under Lamouchi/Hughton. He came back at the start of the season, got in the team under Hughton and was already there, though he was obviously improved by Cooper.

Not really an example of Cooper giving a player a debut.

 

[Gyros Peter]

I mentioned that earlier.

His debut was under Lamouchi in the opening day vs WBA. They then sent him on loan the season after under Lamouchi/Hughton. He came back at the start of the season, got in the team under Hughton and was already there, though he was obviously improved by Cooper.

Not really an example of Cooper giving a player a debut.

No, but an example of him bringing through our youth. I actually didn't remember Hughton using him tbh.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

The best players that came out of the club in the last 10 years all. Joined and were nurtured during the fawaz era. It was a f***ing circus.

Brenan Johnson joined the academy 5 years before Brazil came to the club. Of all the players who came through or were sold on, most had arrived before GB.

Worral, 3 years. Yates, 8 years. Twisty, 9 years. Osborne, 10 years. Yada, yada.

Only Matty Cash, who arrived on the cusp of Brazil arriving, and was 16 already is probably the only player who was concurrent to Brazil and made any money.

Barely any of the later crop, who had their entire academy time under Brazil will make it in the game or return us any money. Even the later scholarship players like Dale Taylor won't progress.

That's not disrespecting Brazil. It's just the way academies are.

It's silly stuff to to think he performed miracles. Apart from the miracle of persisting under Fawaz.

Nurturing all that youth under Fawaz was as big a miracle as it gets without Brian Clough involved.

 

[Statto]

No, but an example of him bringing through our youth. I actually didn't remember Hughton using him tbh.

Literally played all of those under Hughton in the promotion season (apart from the Scruds game and those he played for the sheep shaggers)

 

[Gyros Peter]

View attachment 32081

Literally played all of those under Hughton in the promotion season (apart from the Scruds game and those he played for the sheep shaggers)

Yeah don't doubt it after you said, I'd forgotten that the derby draw was pre Steve too.

 

[donny]

Not in the League, but Cooper gave a debut to Billy Fewster at Blackpool a year ago. He was supposed to be the next big thing, and reportedly other academies were trying to poach him.

Six months later, following a failed loan spell where the manager basically accused him of having no bottle, he was released and is now at Alfreton Town.

There'll be a few others if you also include the League Cup - the team we sent to Grimsby last year was very, very young.

Out of those who he gave debuts to at Grimsby and Blackpool, which, IIRC, was Fewster, Dale Taylor and Zach Abbott, I feel that Abbott will probably get the furthest.

Hughton (even though we moan about him) also gave debuts to Oli Hammond, Riley Harbottle, Baba Fernandes, Ateef Konate, and Jayden Richardson.

Even Lamouchi gave debuts to more youngsters than Cooper.

If anything, as 'good' as Gary Brazil was for us, perhaps things were stagnating and needed moving on a little.

 

[Templeton]

Even the big clubs have spells where the flow of youngsters coming through stagnated for a bit, or the quality drops off a bit.

The 1st team level required at Forest has jumped massively in the last year or so, and it is going to take several years for the academy to start catching up, even then very few will be of Premier League quality. It's a bit ridiculous if anyone tries to pin this down to one person and can't understand that the circumstances of the club as a whole have changed.

 

[donny]

Even the big clubs have spells where the flow of youngsters coming through stagnated for a bit, or the quality drops off a bit.

The 1st team level required at Forest has jumped massively in the last year or so, and it is going to take several years for the academy to start catching up, even then very few will be of Premier League quality. It's a bit ridiculous if anyone tries to pin this down to one person and can't understand that the circumstances of the club as a whole have changed.

Indeed.

I know a few people at other academies across the UK, and they say the standard at Forest is just as good as any other Level 1 / PL Academy, but, they're 2/3 years behind at the top end to where the likes of Brighton and others are.

I think we'll see a few fringe youngsters appear, but, whilst we've got a large first team squad, this is going to be difficult.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Literally played all of those under Hughton in the promotion season (apart from the Scruds game and those he played for the sheep shaggers)

It felt a bit forced though didn't it?

Hughton played him in a central #10 position as creative player (lol, never change Chris) and I'm pretty sure if he had Krovinovic or something then Johnson wouldn't have been in the starting 11.

Never really felt like Hughton realised what a talent he had or how to get the best out of him, more that he didn't have an experienced squad that he wanted because of financial constraints and was only playing Johnson because there was literally no one else, hence his absolute cack about the squad not being good enough to be in anything other than a relegation battle on his pre-Boro BBC RN interview.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Hearing Reidy is in talks about moving to a role coaching in the academy as Nuno wants to bring in his own coaches.

Interesting times if so.

 

[Professor Wolfgang Schnell BSc. PhD.]

Hearing this was in yesterday's Post ...

 

[stockers]

Esapa Osong sends one-word message to 16-year-old who has just joined Villa from Forest

A talented youngster departed Forest yesterday...😪

www.nottinghamforest.news

 

[Any Time Now]

Esapa Osong sends one-word message to 16-year-old who has just joined Villa from Forest

A talented youngster departed Forest yesterday...😪

www.nottinghamforest.news

He's an all action central midfielder, way ahead of his age group and obviously highly rated. Cooper had him training with the first team