Snatchday 1: Nottingham Forest Vs the PGMOL

[Notcher]

Can I ask a couple of honest questions? As an Everton fan, I feel we've not had the rub of the green in a lot of instances of VAR reviews this season, but clearly we were very much on the fortunate side of what happened on Sunday.

Firstly do you really think that this is corruption? The Luton stuff and some of the subsequent comments I've read make me think that there's at least a small number of people who think that the league/PGMOL has conspired against Forest somehow here

Secondly, what's to be gained from the statements? I can accept that the Attwell issue is a fair one, but wouldn't this have been better to have been made in private and then addressed at the next PL meeting or whatever? The statement effectively calls into question the integrity of an official, even if subsequent statements have tried to play that down.

I think the danger here is that public opinion would have been on your side given you had three decisions go against you in a 6 pointer in a nationally televised game. The subsequent statement has flipped that and public opinion, led by the likes of Neville, Carragher, Shearer etc is now firmly against you. I've no idea if that counts for anything at all, but it would seem to make whatever your objective is more difficult to achieve.

If you don't know what the objective is how can you say it's more difficult to achieve?

The statement hasn't flipped support against us it's actually flipped it overwhelmingly in favour for us. It's only the mainstream media outlets that are panning us, the public support is huge.

We're not sure whether there is any corruption at the root of this but money corrupts. It's more likely to be bias but you certainly can't rule it out. Everyone keeps saying "we've had terrible decisions against us too" and I get that but absolutely nothing like we've had constantly, it's on an industrial scale and to the point where even the most sensible supporters agree it's getting a bit whiffy.

In reference to how it's been handled, we've gone down the good boy route and toed the line and it's got us absolutely nowhere.....none of us have even had a response regarding the drop ball farce against Liverpool It's got to the point where it needed something more radical in approach.

None of us give a flying f**k what the media think, all it's doing in that respect is further highlighting the cartel and party line between the broadcaster's, Premier League and the big clubs.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Can I ask a couple of honest questions? As an Everton fan, I feel we've not had the rub of the green in a lot of instances of VAR reviews this season, but clearly we were very much on the fortunate side of what happened on Sunday.

Firstly do you really think that this is corruption? The Luton stuff and some of the subsequent comments I've read make me think that there's at least a small number of people who think that the league/PGMOL has conspired against Forest somehow here

Secondly, what's to be gained from the statements? I can accept that the Attwell issue is a fair one, but wouldn't this have been better to have been made in private and then addressed at the next PL meeting or whatever? The statement effectively calls into question the integrity of an official, even if subsequent statements have tried to play that down.

I think the danger here is that public opinion would have been on your side given you had three decisions go against you in a 6 pointer in a nationally televised game. The subsequent statement has flipped that and public opinion, led by the likes of Neville, Carragher, Shearer etc is now firmly against you. I've no idea if that counts for anything at all, but it would seem to make whatever your objective is more difficult to achieve.

Yes, I think there is corruption. The chances of us being on the receiving end of the sheer number of decisions we've had is so statistically unlikely that it leaves little room for it to be anything other than corruption. We are talking near 20 incidents here against us (at least four of which are unfathomably terrible) against 2 decisions which have gone in our favour (both of which were similar to the first two incidents on Saturday that the media is now describing as 50/50). The odds of that decision distribution is <0.003%. I don't cast corruption allegations lightly, but I simply do not believe the industrialisation of decisions against us can be down to just the refs being wrong, and I do not believe that every single ref under the PGMOL unilaterally dislikes Forest and is willing to risk their own careers because of bias against us. It's got to be deeper than that.

Next question is motive: The Premier League is a product, marketed to global audiences. Majority of revenue is derived from overseas. Overseas global audiences only care about success and the top six teams. It is therefore in the Premier Leagues financial interest to ensure top six remains the top six. You can see this playing out not just in crappy decisions for smaller clubs but also the way FFP is implemented, it gives the top six a spending advantage and does nothing to make those teams more sustainable.

Forest since coming up have challenged the traditional role of the non-top six. We're meant to make up the numbers, take the shit quietly and be happy with the £120m we get from TV revenues. Clubs like Crystal Palace and Brentford play this role very well. Forest meanwhile have come up, spent a f***-tonne, started going after players who had interest from the top six and the owner has made it abundantly clear he wants top six success and he wants it now. We may be f***ing stupidly naive but we're rocking the boat, and that's a risk to the PL, they don't want plucky Forest doing that and they don't want any other "small club" (as Masters described us - twat) copying our model. Top six hegemony is paramount.

So firstly they engineer a situation whereby Forest get done with a points deduction mid-season because of rowing back on FFP allowances right before accounting deadline. Despite that, the bottom three are so shit that Forest are still favourites to be a PL club next year, so what do they do? They begin a sustained programme of terrible refereeing decisions against Forest which started with the Boly red card, right around the points deduction. They are using us to send a warning to other teams: Don't get ideas above your station or this will happen to you.

Everton are part of this too. The PL wants you in the PL as a old, stylish club but they don't want you troubling the top six. You avoided a points deduction which would have relegated you last year. You get a points deduction this year in the same year they know they're going to deduct points from Forest, and the same year they suspect might be a weak bottom three. Really convenient. PL will be happy with your lot as long as you're finishing no higher than mid-table, but don't set your sights higher than that. Next up for the PL is what to do with Aston Villa. Apparently they need to sell to meet FFP for next year so I look forward to some randomly harsh punishment for them to knock them down a peg. Coventry suffered from it over the weekend, an offside given against them to ensure Man Utd had the chance to win in penalties which for me at worst wasn't offside and at best was inconclusive. Can't be missing out on that all Manchester final can we now boys?

Will the statement do any good? Probably not. We are up against a multi-billion pound industry which knows how to close ranks. But I'm encouraged that the wider football family seems to be backing us, if not for the reasons listed above but because VAR is shit and kills the game. Football is nothing without UK fans who go to games - the global appeal isn't just the success of the clubs but the passion and noise, you kill that in grounds and Wang from China might choose to watch Badminton instead.

 

[Alan Akbah]

Can I ask a couple of honest questions? As an Everton fan, I feel we've not had the rub of the green in a lot of instances of VAR reviews this season, but clearly we were very much on the fortunate side of what happened on Sunday.

Firstly do you really think that this is corruption? The Luton stuff and some of the subsequent comments I've read make me think that there's at least a small number of people who think that the league/PGMOL has conspired against Forest somehow here

Secondly, what's to be gained from the statements? I can accept that the Attwell issue is a fair one, but wouldn't this have been better to have been made in private and then addressed at the next PL meeting or whatever? The statement effectively calls into question the integrity of an official, even if subsequent statements have tried to play that down.

I think the danger here is that public opinion would have been on your side given you had three decisions go against you in a 6 pointer in a nationally televised game. The subsequent statement has flipped that and public opinion, led by the likes of Neville, Carragher, Shearer etc is now firmly against you. I've no idea if that counts for anything at all, but it would seem to make whatever your objective is more difficult to achieve.

Not corruption, but incompetence and arrogance in not recusing Attwell when the conflict of interest was called out in private before the game. Forest haven't just kicked off after a crap performance, they warned the PGMOL that this situation could happen.

As for public opinion being against us? I don't believe that is the case. The football Establishment, and in that I'd include Neville and Carragher, don't like us kicking up but I've seen majority support from fans as a whole

Even a Luton supporting friend of mine, whilst still taking the piss massively, believes that we have a point.

 

[Red Echo]

Jonathan Liew is one of the best sports writers around and this article has summed it up quite nicely this morning:

"I know a few Ipswich fans and quite a lot of my time right now is being spent trying to convince them that this – right here – is the good bit. With a team they adore and a league they are tearing apart and a coach who is theirs and theirs alone.

Not the grim struggle that comes after: desperately begging big clubs for loan players, the sheer cliff face to 35 points, hours spent waiting for VAR decisions, 21% possession against Manchester City, elite tactical fouling. Getting bossed 2-0 at home and feeling weirdly grateful. Chris Sutton suddenly deciding to have an opinion about you. Getting rinsed by agents. Getting beaten by literal nation states. For the teams at the bottom of the food chain, the Premier League has come to resemble an abusive relationship.

In hindsight it is increasingly clear that the six Super League clubs should probably have been allowed to go: allowed to join their soiled, half-baked breakaway with its fantasy economics, leaving the rest of the pyramid in peace. The new regulator has the power to rebuild the finances of Championship football, to dissuade impatient owners from building entire business models out of debt and pipe dreams. In the meantime, perhaps fans need to stop conceiving of the Premier League as a form of salvation."

A bit on Forest hits the nail on the head too:

"Of course when reality hits, it hits a little different to the brochures. Let’s take Nottingham Forest. How’s the promised land working out for them right now? Of all the recent promoted clubs, it is Forest who lived the Premier League dream most vicariously: loudly blazoning their ambitions, signing dozens of fun players, remaking themselves entirely. None of which, it turns out, seems to have made them remotely happy."

 

[Robertson]

@toffeeblue9

Every team, rightly points out instances of things that have gone against them as well, and none of us deny that. But it really seems to have gone beyond coincidence for us this season. At key times as well.

I'm not convinced by these exotic theories of a deeper agenda though to be honest.

I just reckon earlier in the season (probably after we lost at Old Trafford) we made the wrong complaint, at the wrong time, against the wrong person, in a way they didn't like, and now the PGMOL hates us. The fact that we are not backing down is only adding fuel to the fire. Both sides are only human.

People will say we're bringing it on ourselves by continuing to make noise about it, but if they're right that only goes to further prove that they believe the officials to be capable of exhibiting bias, when you think about it.

 

[REDDERS78]

Can I ask a couple of honest questions? As an Everton fan, I feel we've not had the rub of the green in a lot of instances of VAR reviews this season, but clearly we were very much on the fortunate side of what happened on Sunday.

Firstly do you really think that this is corruption? The Luton stuff and some of the subsequent comments I've read make me think that there's at least a small number of people who think that the league/PGMOL has conspired against Forest somehow here

Secondly, what's to be gained from the statements? I can accept that the Attwell issue is a fair one, but wouldn't this have been better to have been made in private and then addressed at the next PL meeting or whatever? The statement effectively calls into question the integrity of an official, even if subsequent statements have tried to play that down.

I think the danger here is that public opinion would have been on your side given you had three decisions go against you in a 6 pointer in a nationally televised game. The subsequent statement has flipped that and public opinion, led by the likes of Neville, Carragher, Shearer etc is now firmly against you. I've no idea if that counts for anything at all, but it would seem to make whatever your objective is more difficult to achieve.

A few things here.

This is not a case of throwing toys out because we lost, Everton won, fair play, no issues with that. Shearer, Neville and Carragher are terrified to say having because they will be hauled across the coals for it, like everyone else that "steps out of line"

This may be to Evertons benefit one day because finally a club has the balls to question what is absolutely unacceptable, Its not about one game or Everton, its every f***ing week there's massive cock ups throughout the league in a system that was designed to improve the game, its miles behind were it needs to be and there's NO excuse for it now. Why should clubs just continue to be terrified of saying something? We warned them about it, they did nothing and then look what happens.....How would you guys feel after that, leaving out every other one that goes against us.

I don't see Forest "on their own" in this at all, the level of support from fanbases across the country is massive, Shearer and his bum chums do not represent the feeling of fans, they represent a narrative of self preservation, absolute sausages the lot of them.

Something just is not correct about the way those at the top of the game are conducting themselves and me, you and every other fan and club should stand together on this instead of just sitting back and accepting it. Enough is enough.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Sent from my 23124RA7EO using Tapatalk

Watching that and 'how all the fans are behind Forest' reminded me of this.

Nottingham, Nottingham! Nottingham!

 

[adamthered]

The main issue I'm coming across is that the people who going against what we said seem to always follow it up with something derogatory about our club or/and a what-about-us mentality. What most people are missing is that the refs and their cohorts have been shit for over a decade.

Just because you don't feel you need to complain, doesn't mean you don't have a point.

 

[alabamared]

Can I ask a couple of honest questions? As an Everton fan, I feel we've not had the rub of the green in a lot of instances of VAR reviews this season, but clearly we were very much on the fortunate side of what happened on Sunday.

Firstly do you really think that this is corruption? The Luton stuff and some of the subsequent comments I've read make me think that there's at least a small number of people who think that the league/PGMOL has conspired against Forest somehow here

Secondly, what's to be gained from the statements? I can accept that the Attwell issue is a fair one, but wouldn't this have been better to have been made in private and then addressed at the next PL meeting or whatever? The statement effectively calls into question the integrity of an official, even if subsequent statements have tried to play that down.

I think the danger here is that public opinion would have been on your side given you had three decisions go against you in a 6 pointer in a nationally televised game. The subsequent statement has flipped that and public opinion, led by the likes of Neville, Carragher, Shearer etc is now firmly against you. I've no idea if that counts for anything at all, but it would seem to make whatever your objective is more difficult to achieve.

I don't think there is any corruption in terms of brown envelopes stuffed full of cash however the Atwell situation really is the result of gross stupidity on the part of EPL/PGMOL.

Firstly PGMOL know full well that Atwell is a Luton supporter, these things are declared to them every season so by putting him that position any decision he made which didn't favor Forest opened the way for accusations of bias, now he could have recused himself but I am sure he felt he could deal with it. Now that is gross stupidity by whoever decided he should be the guy. So the first thing is that the EPL/PGMOL should admit that it was a poor decision and maybe sack somebody that would blow away any hint of corruption in terms of what we traditionally understand as corruption.
The second part of that is that the decisions may have been influenced by a subconscious bias which in turn could work two ways either to prove there is no bias by giving Forest the benefit every time or of course the opposite of let's do what we can to help the home town boys. Either way it is a horrible position to be in or one that he never should have been put in.
The likes of Neville etc.? They are not public opinion those guys tow the EPL line because they benefit from the current systems so why would they condone rebellion?
Is there a n EPL bias against Forest? I didn't think so until the incorrect drop ball decision against Liverpool in the 99th minute. Now that wasn’t a mistake by the ref that was deliberate act against the rules and I really can't move on from that one.

 

[derbyshirered]

Jonathan Liew is one of the best sports writers around and this article has summed it up quite nicely this morning:

"I know a few Ipswich fans and quite a lot of my time right now is being spent trying to convince them that this – right here – is the good bit. With a team they adore and a league they are tearing apart and a coach who is theirs and theirs alone.

Not the grim struggle that comes after: desperately begging big clubs for loan players, the sheer cliff face to 35 points, hours spent waiting for VAR decisions, 21% possession against Manchester City, elite tactical fouling. Getting bossed 2-0 at home and feeling weirdly grateful. Chris Sutton suddenly deciding to have an opinion about you. Getting rinsed by agents. Getting beaten by literal nation states. For the teams at the bottom of the food chain, the Premier League has come to resemble an abusive relationship.

In hindsight it is increasingly clear that the six Super League clubs should probably have been allowed to go: allowed to join their soiled, half-baked breakaway with its fantasy economics, leaving the rest of the pyramid in peace. The new regulator has the power to rebuild the finances of Championship football, to dissuade impatient owners from building entire business models out of debt and pipe dreams. In the meantime, perhaps fans need to stop conceiving of the Premier League as a form of salvation."

A bit on Forest hits the nail on the head too:

"Of course when reality hits, it hits a little different to the brochures. Let’s take Nottingham Forest. How’s the promised land working out for them right now? Of all the recent promoted clubs, it is Forest who lived the Premier League dream most vicariously: loudly blazoning their ambitions, signing dozens of fun players, remaking themselves entirely. None of which, it turns out, seems to have made them remotely happy."

Be careful what you wish for

 

[Beeston]

Yes, I think there is corruption. The chances of us being on the receiving end of the sheer number of decisions we've had is so statistically unlikely that it leaves little room for it to be anything other than corruption. We are talking near 20 incidents here against us (at least four of which are unfathomably terrible) against 2 decisions which have gone in our favour (both of which were similar to the first two incidents on Saturday that the media is now describing as 50/50). The odds of that decision distribution is <0.003%. I don't cast corruption allegations lightly, but I simply do not believe the industrialisation of decisions against us can be down to just the refs being wrong, and I do not believe that every single ref under the PGMOL unilaterally dislikes Forest and is willing to risk their own careers because of bias against us. It's got to be deeper than that.

Next question is motive: The Premier League is a product, marketed to global audiences. Majority of revenue is derived from overseas. Overseas global audiences only care about success and the top six teams. It is therefore in the Premier Leagues financial interest to ensure top six remains the top six. You can see this playing out not just in crappy decisions for smaller clubs but also the way FFP is implemented, it gives the top six a spending advantage and does nothing to make those teams more sustainable.

Forest since coming up have challenged the traditional role of the non-top six. We're meant to make up the numbers, take the shit quietly and be happy with the £120m we get from TV revenues. Clubs like Crystal Palace and Brentford play this role very well. Forest meanwhile have come up, spent a f***-tonne, started going after players who had interest from the top six and the owner has made it abundantly clear he wants top six success and he wants it now. We may be f***ing stupidly naive but we're rocking the boat, and that's a risk to the PL, they don't want plucky Forest doing that and they don't want any other "small club" (as Masters described us - twat) copying our model. Top six hegemony is paramount.

So firstly they engineer a situation whereby Forest get done with a points deduction mid-season because of rowing back on FFP allowances right before accounting deadline. Despite that, the bottom three are so shit that Forest are still favourites to be a PL club next year, so what do they do? They begin a sustained programme of terrible refereeing decisions against Forest which started with the Boly red card, right around the points deduction. They are using us to send a warning to other teams: Don't get ideas above your station or this will happen to you.

Everton are part of this too. The PL wants you in the PL as a old, stylish club but they don't want you troubling the top six. You avoided a points deduction which would have relegated you last year. You get a points deduction this year in the same year they know they're going to deduct points from Forest, and the same year they suspect might be a weak bottom three. Really convenient. PL will be happy with your lot as long as you're finishing no higher than mid-table, but don't set your sights higher than that. Next up for the PL is what to do with Aston Villa. Apparently they need to sell to meet FFP for next year so I look forward to some randomly harsh punishment for them to knock them down a peg. Coventry suffered from it over the weekend, an offside given against them to ensure Man Utd had the chance to win in penalties which for me at worst wasn't offside and at best was inconclusive. Can't be missing out on that all Manchester final can we now boys?

Will the statement do any good? Probably not. We are up against a multi-billion pound industry which knows how to close ranks. But I'm encouraged that the wider football family seems to be backing us, if not for the reasons listed above but because VAR is shit and kills the game. Football is nothing without UK fans who go to games - the global appeal isn't just the success of the clubs but the passion and noise, you kill that in grounds and Wang from China might choose to watch Badminton instead.

You make a very long statement here but the fact remains that the on field referee did not award a penalty for any of those events. His decisions were taken as he saw them in real time. Are you saying he is corrupt also?
The real reason we are in a mess is that the squad is not good enough or not managed well enough. Oh and the small matter of 4 points that we could have so easily avoided.

 

[Robertson]

You make a very long statement here but the fact remains that the on field referee did not award a penalty for any of those events. His decisions were taken as he saw them in real time. Are you saying he is corrupt also?
The real reason we are in a mess is that the squad is not good enough or not managed well enough. Oh and the small matter of 4 points that we could have so easily avoided.

There can be several reasons for everything.

Anyway, the squad and management is good enough. Just about. Despite any complaints of poor refereeing.

It's the four point deduction that has us one point out of the drop zone rather than five.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

I don't think there is any corruption in terms of brown envelopes stuffed full of cash however the Atwell situation really is the result of gross stupidity on the part of EPL/PGMOL.

Firstly PGMOL know full well that Atwell is a Luton supporter, these things are declared to them every season so by putting him that position any decision he made which didn't favor Forest opened the way for accusations of bias, now he could have recused himself but I am sure he felt he could deal with it. Now that is gross stupidity by whoever decided he should be the guy. So the first thing is that the EPL/PGMOL should admit that it was a poor decision and maybe sack somebody that would blow away any hint of corruption in terms of what we traditionally understand as corruption.
The second part of that is that the decisions may have been influenced by a subconscious bias which in turn could work two ways either to prove there is no bias by giving Forest the benefit every time or of course the opposite of let's do what we can to help the home town boys. Either way it is a horrible position to be in or one that he never should have been put in.
The likes of Neville etc.? They are not public opinion those guys tow the EPL line because they benefit from the current systems so why would they condone rebellion?
Is there a n EPL bias against Forest? I didn't think so until the incorrect drop ball decision against Liverpool in the 99th minute. Now that wasn’t a mistake by the ref that was deliberate act against the rules and I really can't move on from that one.

They can't do either of those as they would be bias!

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

You make a very long statement here but the fact remains that the on field referee did not award a penalty for any of those events. His decisions were taken as he saw them in real time. Are you saying he is corrupt also?
The real reason we are in a mess is that the squad is not good enough or not managed well enough. Oh and the small matter of 4 points that we could have so easily avoided.

It's a long statement yes and you've chosen to ignore pretty much all of it. Not sure why I'm replying but hey ho.

It goes beyond the weekends game.

And no, I'm not suggesting the on-field ref was definitely corrupt. He might be given we've had bad decisions against us from him in previous games, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt given he didn't have access to multiple replays with different angles. I would even give Attwell a pass as well if it was just this one game, it's the sheer volume sustained over a five month period which is the red flag.

I agree the squad isn't as good as it might be, and that we're badly managed. A number of factors have pushed us towards the brink and it would be folly to think it was only one of them. Refereeing decisions is a big factor though.

 

[toffeeblue9]

A few things here.

This is not a case of throwing toys out because we lost, Everton won, fair play, no issues with that. Shearer, Neville and Carragher are terrified to say having because they will be hauled across the coals for it, like everyone else that "steps out of line"

This may be to Evertons benefit one day because finally a club has the balls to question what is absolutely unacceptable, Its not about one game or Everton, its every f***ing week there's massive cock ups throughout the league in a system that was designed to improve the game, its miles behind were it needs to be and there's NO excuse for it now. Why should clubs just continue to be terrified of saying something? We warned them about it, they did nothing and then look what happens.....How would you guys feel after that, leaving out every other one that goes against us.

I don't see Forest "on their own" in this at all, the level of support from fanbases across the country is massive, Shearer and his bum chums do not represent the feeling of fans, they represent a narrative of self preservation, absolute sausages the lot of them.

Something just is not correct about the way those at the top of the game are conducting themselves and me, you and every other fan and club should stand together on this instead of just sitting back and accepting it. Enough is enough.

I think you're all mostly making fair points. You all absolutely have the right to feel aggrieved. On top of the PSR stuff (which we've been calling out for years as a system which is designed to maintain the status quo rather than its stated aim of promoting financial sustainability) that you've come up against this season, you've absolutely had more than your fair share of poor decisions go against you.

You also are absolutely right to be livid about Sunday. If the roles were reversed and we'd had those 3 decisions go against us in a 6 pointer like that, especially after the PSR stuff this season, I can only imagine how apoplectic I would be.

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I'm fairly active on Twitter and work remotely with a team of people across the country who all wanted to talk football yesterday after the weekend and it was my perception that you'd probably alienated the majority of peoples opinion I saw/heard. Granted, we might all be living in an echo chamber and it's probably a generalisation, but I can only really give you my take on it. For what it's worth, I think if the roles were reversed here, I'd find it difficult to be objective about it currently as the red mist would still be clouding my judgement but, from my point of view right now, I think your point about Attwell was perfectly fair, but the execution of it was off. It would have been one to have made in private and then escalated through the correct channels (PL meeting, summit with Howard Webb, whatever). I think it would then have been fair to go public with your concerns if they weren't addressed, without being specific, at the end of the season and simply ask that the process for VAR selection is reviewed.

At the end of the day though, you've got a legitimate axe to grind. I'm not convinced it extends as far as corruption, I'd take more convincing on that point, but it's not for me to tell you how you should be reacting, I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of what the feeling is on the issue.

 

[REDDERS78]

It goes beyond the weekends game.

And no, I'm not suggesting the on-field ref was definitely corrupt. He might be given we've had bad decisions against us from him in previous games, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt given he didn't have access to multiple replays with different angles. I would even give Attwell a pass as well if it was just this one game, it's the sheer volume sustained over a five month period which is the red flag.

I agree the squad isn't as good as it might be, and that we're badly managed. A number of factors have pushed us towards the brink and it would be folly to think it was only one of them. Refereeing decisions is a big factor though.

And more importantly, the point of the conversation.

 

[Notcher]

Well, well, well would you believe it, just announced the referees chosen for the Euros.....

Anthony Taylor & Stuart Atwell for VAR

F**k me

 

[congo_red_49]

At the end of the day though, you've got a legitimate axe to grind. I'm not convinced it extends as far as corruption, I'd take more convincing on that point, but it's not for me to tell you how you should be reacting, I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of what the feeling is on the issue.

Well, if you'd like an alternative view - I'm not in the slightest bit livid - I'm completely apathetic to it all, as I feel my anger would be a wasted emotion that will change nothing.
I'm so fed up with both the state of the modern game after all the rule changes, and the Premier League with it's FFP and poor VAR implementation, that I'm pretty much done with it all and will be spending my Saturday afternoons doing something else which doesn't feel completely pointless in future.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

I think your point about Attwell was perfectly fair, but the execution of it was off. It would have been one to have made in private and then escalated through the correct channels (PL meeting, summit with Howard Webb, whatever). I think it would then have been fair to go public with your concerns if they weren't addressed, without being specific, at the end of the season and simply ask that the process for VAR selection is reviewed.

We've submitted three complaint letters already this season in private and have been ignored. We asked for impartiality considerations before the game and were ignored.

We have tried to be reasonable. The Twitter outburst was an outburst not because of the specific decisions on Saturday but because it was the latest in a long line of anti-Forest dogshit from PGMOL who had done precisely zero to alleviate our concerns up until that point. I dislike Marinakis intensely but frankly they brought it on themselves and I hope our owner doubles, triples, quadruples down. (assuming the tweet was his, or green lighted by him as it so reads)

Asking for VAR selection to be reviewed at end of season will be too late, we'll be relegated by then. PGMOL would snidely tell us that there's no VAR in the Championship so nothing to worry about.

 

[toffeeblue9]

We've submitted three complaint letters already this season in private and have been ignored. We asked for impartiality considerations before the game and were ignored.

We have tried to be reasonable. The Twitter outburst was an outburst not because of the specific decisions on Saturday but because it was the latest in a long line of anti-Forest dogshit from PGMOL who had done precisely zero to alleviate our concerns up until that point. I dislike Marinakis intensely but (assuming the tweet was his, or green lighted by him as it so reads) then frankly they brought it on themselves and I hope our owner doubles, triples, quadruples down.

Asking for VAR selection to be reviewed at end of season will be too late, we'll be relegated by then. PGMOL would snidely tell us that there's no VAR in the Championship so nothing to worry about.

I'd missed this - Forest have submitted three letters already on the point about impartiality of VAR officials?

 

[Otis Redding]

"Forest fan, Daryl" on TalkSport just shouted down by White & Jordan after putting over a very reasonable condemnation of the general MSM pile-in on NFFC.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

I'd missed this - Forest have submitted three letters already on the point about impartiality of VAR officials?

Three letters of complaint about unacceptable refereeing decisions against us.

 

[Notcher]

"Forest fan, Daryl" on TalkSport just shouted down by White & Jordan after putting over a very reasonable condemnation of the general MSM pile-in on NFFC.

Heard it. They didn't like it when he challenged the media narrative. Jordan purposely moved it off the point he was trying to make and Jim White was disingenuous with how he has obviously been trying to convey the message regarding Forest not asking for Atwells removal

 

[REDDERS78]

I think you're all mostly making fair points. You all absolutely have the right to feel aggrieved. On top of the PSR stuff (which we've been calling out for years as a system which is designed to maintain the status quo rather than its stated aim of promoting financial sustainability) that you've come up against this season, you've absolutely had more than your fair share of poor decisions go against you.

You also are absolutely right to be livid about Sunday. If the roles were reversed and we'd had those 3 decisions go against us in a 6 pointer like that, especially after the PSR stuff this season, I can only imagine how apoplectic I would be.

I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I'm fairly active on Twitter and work remotely with a team of people across the country who all wanted to talk football yesterday after the weekend and it was my perception that you'd probably alienated the majority of peoples opinion I saw/heard. Granted, we might all be living in an echo chamber and it's probably a generalisation, but I can only really give you my take on it. For what it's worth, I think if the roles were reversed here, I'd find it difficult to be objective about it currently as the red mist would still be clouding my judgement but, from my point of view right now, I think your point about Attwell was perfectly fair, but the execution of it was off. It would have been one to have made in private and then escalated through the correct channels (PL meeting, summit with Howard Webb, whatever). I think it would then have been fair to go public with your concerns if they weren't addressed, without being specific, at the end of the season and simply ask that the process for VAR selection is reviewed.

At the end of the day though, you've got a legitimate axe to grind. I'm not convinced it extends as far as corruption, I'd take more convincing on that point, but it's not for me to tell you how you should be reacting, I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of what the feeling is on the issue.

I think the problem is clubs do report incidents, and Forest have done previously but nothing gets done about it, its seems they want to offer an apology and wash their hands of it, of course nobody dare say anything for fear of retribution.

I'm not sure the club has a choice anymore, we are on the brink and then that happens. I know someone who works at the club, a Luton fan actually and he told me a month or so back that Forest have been battling with the PL all season over things like security, random audits with subsequent threats etc. Wether its our own doing or not they do not like us, I suspect the complaints have not helped either.

I'm not shouting corruption at all, but I think its clear they would rather we were not here, were generally non compliant enough and if you add some of the ridiculous decision we have had go against us, the whole FFP thing and then that on Sunday, its does raise suspicions I have to say. I mean, these guys have been ignoring FFP for years, Chelsea and Man City etc.....something just feels wrong. I'm not excusing the team, were absolutely shite, but this is a different subject.

Whatever the outcome, I hope it leads to more transparency. I didn't really want Forest to be the first to put their balls on the block but here we are, I just hope we are not allowed to be silenced because this entire thing simply cannot be allowed to continue.

Destination Prem has not been all its cracked up to be for me, I detest it.

 

[derbyshirered]

Well, if you'd like an alternative view - I'm not in the slightest bit livid - I'm completely apathetic to it all, as I feel my anger would be a wasted emotion that will change nothing.
I'm so fed up with both the state of the modern game after all the rule changes, and the Premier League with it's FFP and poor VAR implementation, that I'm pretty much done with it all and will be spending my Saturday afternoons doing something else which doesn't feel completely pointless in future.

Feel pretty much the same