Refereeing 'Standards'

[Daz]

Ah gosh, did anyone see the Chelsea v Man Utd game? It was totally ruined by Clattenburg's red card to Torres and to rub salt into the wound, Man Utd's winning goal was offside too. I didn't see the Liverpool derby earlier but I hear that Suarez had a perfectly legitimate last minute winner ruled out too.

I think everyone is quickly losing faith in the referees in this country, when you think of how much football has changed in the past 20 years it is ridiculous that refereeing hasn't improved and has arguably regressed(?) I can't help but think something radical needs to be done. It is laughable that the premier league is a billion pound industry and yet important make or break decisions are often got wrong by amateurs.

I used to be against TV evidence being used because I thought it would negatively impact the flow of play, but I think there is no choice but to bring it more into play so that the big decisions (goals and red cards) are made correctly during the game. The FA should also do more to not only raise standards but also to help the referees. They are often notable in their absence from discussions on the big issues. I actually think that the yellow card to Torres was a direct result of pressure about diving in the game but the FA can easily stamp this out of the game if they wanted to.

So my suggestion for improvements to the game
1. Goal line technology brought in straight away. Why the delay?
2. Where practical a 5th official should be watching games in real time and there to assist the on-pitch referee. I think it would be unrealistic for him to make decisions throughout the game on standard run of the mill issues but we all know that it is the big decisions that matter. Would it really be of detriment if goals and red cards were re-verified by the 5th official? They are the two things that affect games the most and as they also both normally lead to a break in play anyway, I don't really think it would slow down the game too much.
3. The FA is useless in using tv footage to make decisions retrospectively, there are ridiculous arbitrary rules in place which hinder decisions being reviewed. A citing system should be brought in and the FA should take more retrospective action against players, and be more prepared to listen to club's concerns.
4. Two things that the FA could pretty much eliminate overnight are racism and diving. If they gave an automatic 8 game ban for racism and a 2 match ban for diving - which could be retrospectively charged - then both things would drastically reduce in the game.
5. Finally, referees who under perform shouldn't be relegated to the championship. I know there might be a problem in bringing numbers of referees through but we should aim to have a constantly high level of refereeing across the leagues. If a referee makes a howler then he should have to explain it. If there isn't an adequate explanation then they should have to re-take qualifications be retested etc.

I know that Premier League clubs have it lucky compared to some of the bad decisions we've come accustomed to in the championship/league one but considering the amount of money they have at their disposal and how many television cameras watch each game, it is surprising that more things can't be done at the higher level to reduce human error.

Any thoughts at all?

 

[winnits]

Suarez had a perfectly legitimate last minute winner ruled out too.

Any thoughts at all?

I approve of the disallowing of Liverpool goals.

 

[TheDude]

He should have also been sent off just for the hell of it

 

[MansfieldRed]

Chelsea lodging a complaint against Clattenburg for "inappropriate language."

 

[Barbus]

Not gonna shed any tears for Torres if he didn't dive THIS time; he's sure as hell got away with it plenty of times, and if players weren't always diving allover the place all the time, Clattenberg wouldn't even have to try and figure out if it was a dive in the first place...so f*** him.

 

[incapable hulk]

Clattenburgs a terrible ref, but Torres dived and it was a yellow.

People moan about diving, but when someone is booked for diving and sent off then people moan about the standard of refereeing it.

 

[PynchonForest]

That wasn't a dive. He was fouled. While he went down easy, yes, but when a player goes down a bit easy after being fouled, I really can't blame them.

I've been saying for a few years that football needs instant replay. It hasn't really hurt rugby, has it?

My proposal is this. Each team gets two shouts for instant replay a match. More than that, and the ref should probably be demoted (which is really only a legit move if there are guys as good as the top flite guys the next level down. This is definitely not the case. So, we have another problem too). Some of the Championship refs are terrible. Anyway...back to replay.

Teams get two shouts a match. They can use them whenever. But you get two. Period. And, it can only be used to challenge goals and red cards (and, by extension, second yellows). These are the true game changing moments. Penalty kicks maybe, maybe not. And, to be proactive and deal with SAF or someone challenging ridiculous decisions late in, say, a 6-1 game with City, you fine teams heavily for using challenges to make some roundabout protest about a refs performance.

The game needs instant reply. Badly. Things happen far too quickly. Having stated that, the mistakes by the ARs over the past two days have been inexcusable and I see no reason why they were made except for lapses in concentration.

 

[incapable hulk]

Really? How was he fouled?

Football is a contact sport, there was very minimal if any contact and torres fell over dramatically.

It was simulation.

The worst thing to ever happen to football is this "there was contact so hes entitled to go down" mentality that pervades.

Torres was correctly booked for simulation. He went down easy,when he wasnt.

Yes you can blame him, as he chose to con the ref and pretend he was chopped down when he wasnt.

Football doesnt need americanising with all these replays, the ref got this right.

If that had been in the box and hed given a penalty, people would be going on about how it wasnt a pen

The ref got that right tonight.

 

[gedlingred]

Really? How was he fouled?

Football is a contact sport, there was very minimal if any contact and torres fell over dramatically.

It was simulation.

The worst thing to ever happen to football is this "there was contact so hes entitled to go down" mentality that pervades.

Torres was correctly booked for simulation. He went down easy,when he wasnt.

Yes you can blame him, as he chose to con the ref and pretend he was chopped down when he wasnt.

Football doesnt need americanising with all these replays, the ref got this right.

If that had been in the box and hed given a penalty, people would be going on about how it wasnt a pen

The ref got that right tonight.

In which case, he got the other sending off wrong, as Ashley Young did exactly what Torres did.

 

[sedgred]

How about the players and the attitude of the Managers not making the task easy for a Ref, they cheat at every available oppotunity, yet whinge and whine when a legitimate claim is turned down........I think when the weekends refering descions are analysed, the Refs get far more right than wrong.

 

[incapable hulk]

In which case, he got the other sending off wrong, as Ashley Young did exactly what Torres did.

I fully agree with you, Youngs tumbling was pathetic.

How about the players and the attitude of the Managers not making the task easy for a Ref, they cheat at every available oppotunity, yet whinge and whine when a legitimate claim is turned down........I think when the weekends refering descions are analysed, the Refs get far more right than wrong.

This

 

[TheDude]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...enburg-accused-racial-slur-chelsea?CMP=twt_gu

 

[Daz]

To be fair to Clattenburg I did mention in my first post that the yellow was probably as a result of recent media stories about diving and it an area that referees don't appear to be getting any support from the FA on. If Torres didn't go down so easily in general and some kind of retrospective penalty was in place for diving, then its not a decision MC would have had to make.

It still doesn't disguise that is was a poor decision especially in the context of the game. Chelsea were down to 10 men and it was a foul (admittedly like all footballers he made a meal out of it). There is nothing worse than when a referee's decision ruins a game as a contest, which is what happened today.

I agree that clubs are largely at fault for unsporting behaviour. Unfortunately gone are the days where managers like Brian Clough would stamp this thing out internally. There is an endemic lack of respect in the game and clubs have no morals, even Phil Neville from the pious holier than thou Everton dived today. I think we can pretty much rule out self regulation at football clubs now.

Diving aside - there are still other problems that just seem to keep coming up, I can't remember the last MOTD I watched without dodgy offside decisions or a phantom goal etc.

 

[Gary]

Thing is, like most things political, it'll never be so black and white. You say an automatic 8 game ban for racism - I imagine with all the red tape, the video analysis and the basic was he or wasn't he, an 8 game ban wouldn't be invoked for a few months at least.

Racism will never go away. Thats a horrific thought to have and it makes me sick. Its the lowest and most cowardly quality to have in a human.

 

[Red Duster]

Suarez version of the Klinsman swallow dive as a goal celebration made me laugh.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Problem isn't just the need for technology, it's refs who are just shit.

How many potential refs who would be good are put off when first getting into it by taking charge of amateur games in which they're harassed or worse for ninety minutes?

I see it when I play Sunday League and wonder why they bother, despite some of them being as good, if not better, than their Premier League counterparts.

That being said, goal-line technology (beep if it crosses the line) and instant replays (allow teams to challenge refs three times a game) and you'll stop the most obvious mistakes straight away whilst retaining the fluidity of the game, which probably wouldn't be impacted anyway, but gotta keep everyone happy I suppose.

 

[Gary]

I don't know how video replays would ever fit in. Rugbys played at a different pace, you can afford time to analyse. I reckon if it was ever introduced, yes it would clear up a lot of errors, but match day experience would just be ruined.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

I don't know how video replays would ever fit in. Rugbys played at a different pace, you can afford time to analyse. I reckon if it was ever introduced, yes it would clear up a lot of errors, but match day experience would just be ruined.

When the ball goes out of play?

 

[PynchonForest]

If referees are "just shit" then why waste your time complaining about them?

And there are no guys in your sunday league who are anywhere near being good enough to ref pro ball. I don't even need to be there to know that. Just not the way things work my friend. At all.

I'm a good local ref, probably very good in the grand scheme of things. When I do the top level stuff here (mens anyway), I barely cut it. Whne I do mid to low divisions, the players invariably say I am "the best ref we've dealt with in years". Which, considering how bad the average ref is around here, is also probably true. The top guys, most of them, don't do lower and mid div stuff. The best guy in this city is a dude named Dave Gantar. He is far and away better than anyone else. I've never seen him tube a game locally, ever. But this summer, I've witnessed him have two terrible games in MLS.

The jump into the highest levels is not even close to being an easy one. The mental aspect, the fitness levels, and the ability to manage personalities is way more involved. WAY more involved.

Sorry dude, but referees are not shit. The game has changed immeasurably the past two decades. Four sets of eyes are not enough to spot what goes on, and get it right during the moments of truth.
That is the problem. Refs are fitter, have far more access to preparatory materials like video replay etc. The science behind refereeing is far more involved now than it was in 1990. By rights, refs should be far better now than they used to be. And I'll agree that they are not, based upon performance. But it isn't based upon some sort of inferior intellect. A dumb guy can NEVER Be a top ref. It is impossible.
tAnd, btw, I have seen Collina shit the bed immensely a few times in Serie A games. Even the bets refs have bad games. Just like players.

 

[Erik]

If referees are "just shit" then why waste your time complaining about them?

And there are no guys in your sunday league who are anywhere near being good enough to ref pro ball. I don't even need to be there to know that. Just not the way things work my friend. At all.

I'm a good local ref, probably very good in the grand scheme of things. When I do the top level stuff here (mens anyway), I barely cut it. Whne I do mid to low divisions, the players invariably say I am "the best ref we've dealt with in years". Which, considering how bad the average ref is around here, is also probably true. The top guys, most of them, don't do lower and mid div stuff. The best guy in this city is a dude named Dave Gantar. He is far and away better than anyone else. I've never seen him tube a game locally, ever. But this summer, I've witnessed him have two terrible games in MLS.

The jump into the highest levels is not even close to being an easy one. The mental aspect, the fitness levels, and the ability to manage personalities is way more involved. WAY more involved.

Sorry dude, but referees are not shit. The game has changed immeasurably the past two decades. Four sets of eyes are not enough to spot what goes on, and get it right during the moments of truth.
That is the problem. Refs are fitter, have far more access to preparatory materials like video replay etc. The science behind refereeing is far more involved now than it was in 1990. By rights, refs should be far better now than they used to be. And I'll agree that they are not, based upon performance. But it isn't based upon some sort of inferior intellect. A dumb guy can NEVER Be a top ref. It is impossible.
tAnd, btw, I have seen Collina shit the bed immensely a few times in Serie A games. Even the bets refs have bad games. Just like players.

Your argument against the 'ref's are shit' line appears to be 'Ref's aren't good enough for the modern game'?

People have been moaning about referees since they first appeared and it will never stop.

 

[Barbus]

I just don't know why football has to stick its head in the sand and constantly avoid the bringing in of technology.
All other major sports use it.

Even when it's been talked about for goal line use, we've had loads of people, from administrators to pundits to fans, saying 'But we ONLY want it for goal line, not for anything else like penalties or offsides'.

I don't understand the logic of that point of view. Penalties and offsides change games just as much as did it or didn't it cross the line calls, but happen far more frequently; So if we're going to spend millions of pounds installing these systems and then only use them for something that never happens in mosst games, but not use existing video replay tech to help refs get important calls right in every game?

It's an absolute joke of a situation.

 

[GOBIAS]

The way I see it rightly or wrongly is this:

I don't want to see technology in the game except for possibly goal line technology that would be a buzzer in the referees ear when the ball crosses the goal line. The rest of the technology would ruin the essence of football in my opinion. 15 or so years ago when I did sports studies for my gcse's we did a section on open and closed sports. A closed sport is something like snooker which is played on a table, always of the same size and standard, isn't effected by outside factors like weather, doesn't count on refereeing decisions all the time. Football is quite an open sport. There are so many factors that effect the way a result can go. One of them is the referee and the officials. It is a massive part of why football is unpredictable and so open to a shock result and why we love it and why people go watch there team on the off chance they'll beat a team on paper they shouldn't. The really big teams want the game to be closed off as much a they can. The pitches they play on are like carpets now, and if referees and officials got every decision bob on the game swings even more into the favour of the big teams. Part of football is the controversy and frustration. I hate it when forest get done over by a bad decision but it Is great when one goes your way. It is part of football. The only good thing I could see is talksport would shut down overnight!!

I also don't buy the fact it is such a big billion pound industry. As far as I am concerned one of the things ruining the game is the big money pumped in. I don't see why our game should be changed because some big business has decided to pump so much money into a GAME and shit themselves when the GAME produces upsets that are part of the game and are part of why football is loved.

Regarding the actual technology used. Football wouldn't work with stoppages all the time. I watch a fair bit of rugby league and sometimes it can take a couple of minutes to look at whether a try should be allowed or not. Sometimes you watch it and disagree with the person next to you after watching it over and over 8 times. Sometimes on match of the day the expert pundits sit and disagree with each other after having the benefit of about fifteen replays from ten different angles. Referees do such a hard job. It would be more helpful to sort the players diving, cheating and berating the referee. Maybe then the officials could do the job they are paid to in comfort, not under as much pressure, not having to work out if a player has dived, is play acting etc... Then we might see better decisions made.

Regarding yesterday's Chelsea match. I thought Torres dived myself in real time and as much as I don't like clattenberg I thought he refereed ok yesterday. Having seen the incident again ten times and one with a patch zoomed in on the area where Evans foot was and in slow motion Torres was clipped but the referee has to make the decision in real time. The only bad decision was by his linesman but at that pace it looked onside so that is part of the game. I also find it laughable and pretty pathetic that Chelsea are running to the authorities telling tales on the referee for making inappropriate comments when they spend the whole game berating the official and trying to intimidate him into giving them decisions. Pathetic.

 

[Northern Forester]

What is Clattenburg alleged to have said to these players then?

---

 

[Barbus]

Regarding stopping the game, all the three big controversial decisions yesterday, the game had already stopped; would it really be a bad thing if those goals were then correctly decided upon?

 

[incapable hulk]

To be fair to Clattenburg I did mention in my first post that the yellow was probably as a result of recent media stories about diving and it an area that referees don't appear to be getting any support from the FA on. If Torres didn't go down so easily in general and some kind of retrospective penalty was in place for diving, then its not a decision MC would have had to make.

It still doesn't disguise that is was a poor decision especially in the context of the game. Chelsea were down to 10 men and it was a foul (admittedly like all footballers he made a meal out of it). There is nothing worse than when a referee's decision ruins a game as a contest, which is what happened today.

But this is part of the problem - "it was a poor decision especially in the context of the game". Why was it?

Torres dived, and was booked accordingly for trying to gain an advantage unfairly.

You can pick and choose what rules you apply and when, and thats the biggest problem with modern refereeing - theres no consistency.

Ref's seem to be given licience to pick and choose which rules they apply.

I actually thought fergie got it right after the game when he said

"I think Jonny Evans might have caught him. But the decision the referee has to make is whether the striker has chosen to go down."

Its a foul if Evans had kicked him and taken him down, but he didnt. Evans ever so slightly touched him, and Torres decided that was a foul. Contact isnt automatically a foul (which seems to be the way its interpreted now days)

I agree with you about it being the clubs fault for unsporting behaviour (the neville thing was comical aswell, cant believe of all people he did that) - but referees and the games authorities have just allowed it to happen for so long now that we are at a point where it is viewed as acceptable.

You hear people constantly talking about "hes entitled to go down there" which is outrageous.



Its spoiling the game, and its now at a point where it needs a heavy handed approach to curb it.