Hillsborough could forest fans have done more?

[Otis Redding]

I don't know if others on here can understand this, but I've continued to carry a strange, detached feeling ever since watching it all unfold from the South Stand that afternoon. It's hard to describe exactly other than a sort of self-reproach because I've struggled to get as emotional as many others have about that event despite the fact that 97 innocent people lost their lives in awful circumstances right in front of me.

I doubt that I'd be able to offer any more of a coherant response if I was approached for my feelings as a witness to it now.

 

[Statto]

Same, I was 11 and its not a memory I really have been able to let go or don't feel some kind of way about either.

We haven't been included as part of the story for the last 35 years in truth, noone has really bothered to ask about the effect it had on us either and I wouldn't start now all these years down the line by marking the event with anything other than what we have done as our seemingly long standing position which is effectively stoicism, sympathy and leaving Liverpool the space to do what they see fit.

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I agree with you.

But, historically at least one can see the reasons here. The crush occurred in the Liverpool end, however it was caused. It was Liverpool fans who were injured or died. The Forest fans were in the other stands and were not directly affected by any crush. So that's OK right because none of them died or were taken to hospital? I guess the attitude at the time would be that, it's only a reflection of more recent times that there has been more focus on mental as well as physical health. So no-one at the time with any traction would have likely thought of the mental health of those at the match but not involved directly in the incident, whether that be Liverpool fans in the other stand or Forest fans, or even those in the upper tier of the Leppings Lane end. If a similar thing happened today then you'd imagine that there would be counselling available for those at the match and maybe even those who had seen it on TV. Seeing an incident where almost 100 people were crushed to death is bound to affect people.

But you are probably right that to do something about this after 35 years when it's not been thought of before is too late to start.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

I don't know if others on here can understand this, but I've continued to carry a strange, detached feeling ever since watching it all unfold from the South Stand that afternoon. It's hard to describe exactly other than a sort of self-reproach because I've struggled to get as emotional as many others have about that event despite the fact that 97 innocent people lost their lives in awful circumstances right in front of me.

People deal with tragedy in different ways. Yours is no more right or wrong than others.

 

[Statto]

100%, they have memorials where they matter. Even the Hillsborough families group have long moved on from the period when people often seemed to be competing in the performative grief stakes...... empty seats, releasing 96 pigeons, the mascot thing etc..... I believe that they felt it was all becoming more spectacle and show than respectful.
View attachment 38268

The Hillsborough families groups were more about overturning a few things which they felt were wrong about the original inquest and verdict.

In the original inquest they basically said it was an accident but they wanted it to be unlawful killing based on the response of the Police at the time.

It was only later when Phil Scraton (whose books are well worth reading) found the original SYP statements that he realised there had been a massive cover up which prompted a new inquiry.

They don't (and should never have had) have that to fight for any more, at least, which gives closure to their departed friends and relatives

 

[Otis Redding]

People deal with tragedy in different ways. Yours is no more right or wrong than others.

That's pretty much how I try to excuse/explain it to myself.

 

[Statto]

That's pretty much how I try to excuse/explain it to myself.

Nothing wrong with it at all. If detaching yourself from the event helps cope with that, and that works for you, then that's perfectly legitimate.

 

[Malwood]

Everything you need to know about Liverpool fans can be summed up in the fact they want sympathy for Hillsborough without acknowledging the evil things they did at Heysel.

You want to talk about Hillsborough? Go ask a Juve fan.

 

[IvorThirst]

I was there in the South Stand. There was a young Liverpool fan lying 20 yards away having his chest pumped by fists trying to get his heart started. He had one last leg movement and then passed away in front of us. This image is still as vivid 35 years later, totally tragic

 

[alabamared]

I was there in the South Stand. There was a young Liverpool fan lying 20 yards away having his chest pumped by fists trying to get his heart started. He had one last leg movement and then passed away in front of us. This image is still as vivid 35 years later, totally tragic

If you check out the original Hillsborough thread you will find many of us gave our heart felt accounts of our experience many of them very moving.

 

[alabamared]

Ah, OK! Sorry I couldn't find another thread that would allow me to post as the more obvious ones give me a "Locked" message.
If anyone with the power to do so would like to relocate my post, please feel free!

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The is a good reason those threads are closed.
Have you ever thought that those of us who were there just don't want the subject opening again all you will achieve is the inducement of a sort of PTSD which really isn't wanted or pleasant.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

I feel genuinely sorry for the innocent people who lost their lives, it was a shocking experience for all of us that were there that day.
However - I was 28 at the time - not a kid - and able to make my own assessment of what happened. I know what I saw and I know where I lay the blame.
I am fed up of hearing about this every year, its more than time to move on

 

[Homer is a Red]

It's been interesting to read the variety of responses on this. I posted the link because I think the story of how some Forest fans are still struggling to deal with the awful events 35 years ago is worth a read and certainly struck some parallels with my own.
The idea of a memorial is a different news story that has been publicised a lot today. Personally, I'm not too fussed either way on a memorial!
However, if there's something we/anyone can do to help ourselves and other Forest fans with psychological scars, then I, for one, think it should be embraced.
As someone has already mentioned, people handle grief and trauma in different ways, let them do what they need to do without pre judgement!
Despite some suggestions on here about closing down discussions on the topic, clearly people still want/need to discuss it, so I would ask that we respect that!
Lastly, I'm no expert, but I do have some knowledge of mental health, and the overall current expert opinion is that talking helps!

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[Louth Red]

I wasn’t there that day but my brother was. I knew it was serious but could not contact him in the days before mobile phones. He rarely comments about it but always says that no one asked Forest supporters about it, and he knows what he witnessed on his way from car to ground. He knows that the police, Wednesday and football authorities also had serious questions to answer.
We are all clear that those who died in the pens were the innocent ones - they arrived early for the game.
A friend of mine was the local vicar (also a Wednesday fan). He was called in that day to visit the dead and to help administer support for their friends and family.
I know of Forest supporters who were and still are badly affected by the events that day. They have been behind the banner displayed at Anfield in our two PL games.
Anything that will help those affected whether Forest or Liverpool I will support.
However, I wrote recently after the recent PL game about my very difficult experience with Liverpool supporters returning to my car after that game. On Saturday I heard that they removed 47 seats celebrating their late winner. Some of them don’t help themselves.

 

[sammy the snake]

No.

Fin.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

It's been interesting to read the variety of responses on this. I posted the link because I think the story of how some Forest fans are still struggling to deal with the awful events 35 years ago is worth a read and certainly struck some parallels with my own.
The idea of a memorial is a different news story that has been publicised a lot today. Personally, I'm not too fussed either way on a memorial!
However, if there's something we/anyone can do to help ourselves and other Forest fans with psychological scars, then I, for one, think it should be embraced.
As someone has already mentioned, people handle grief and trauma in different ways, let them do what they need to do without pre judgement!
Despite some suggestions on here about closing down discussions on the topic, clearly people still want/need to discuss it, so I would ask that we respect that!
Lastly, I'm no expert, but I do have some knowledge of mental health, and the overall current expert opinion is that talking helps!

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I hear what you are saying - and I am not an expert on mental health either.
I am not sure that having the same conversation every year for the last 35 years, which brings peoples memories and emotions to the fore, benefits anyone.
It is the same with having a memorial @ Forest - What purpose does that serve? there are already memorials in the appropriate places - where the tragedy happened and where the the innocent, who passed away, were from.
There are a lot of people in Nottingham who hold very strong views about that day, the next thing to happen would be that some idiot would desecrate any memorial and that would bring a whole new set of problems.
In my opinion this is not a very good idea

 

[Alan Akbah]

....There are a lot of people in Nottingham who hold very strong views about that day...

Not just that day, the entire preceding decade of our interactions as both clubs and fans right up to it.

 

[Otis Redding]

Nothing wrong with it at all. If detaching yourself from the event helps cope with that, and that works for you, then that's perfectly legitimate.

The thing is Stat, I haven't made a concious decision to detach myself in order to deal with things, it's a natural response that I've retained which I've found disquieting. My then-18-year-old son was on the Hillsborough Kop that afternoon with his mates but, unlike me, he and they have been manifestly impacted by what they saw. I can only conclude that I must have a cold fuc.king heart.

 

[Alan Akbah]

I must have a cold fuc.king heart.

I very much doubt that. There was nothing you could do and it wasn't your fault it happened. It's good that you can compartmentalise it and perfectly natural.

 

[alabamared]

It's been interesting to read the variety of responses on this. I posted the link because I think the story of how some Forest fans are still struggling to deal with the awful events 35 years ago is worth a read and certainly struck some parallels with my own.
The idea of a memorial is a different news story that has been publicised a lot today. Personally, I'm not too fussed either way on a memorial!
However, if there's something we/anyone can do to help ourselves and other Forest fans with psychological scars, then I, for one, think it should be embraced.
As someone has already mentioned, people handle grief and trauma in different ways, let them do what they need to do without pre judgement!
Despite some suggestions on here about closing down discussions on the topic, clearly people still want/need to discuss it, so I would ask that we respect that!
Lastly, I'm no expert, but I do have some knowledge of mental health, and the overall current expert opinion is that talking helps!

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I am not sure talking does help. As an ex infantry soldier have done two tours of NI in the '70s (and a couple of other scraps) I can tell you with some degree of certainty that talking about these things really doesn't help at all. You need to learn how to pack these things away and partition them in your mind, then and only then can you move on.
In general it is the people who wren't there who want to talk about it.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Not just that day, the entire preceding decade of our interactions as both clubs and fans right up to it.

I was trying to be diplomatic

 

[Rockabilly]

As an ex infantry soldier have done two tours of NI in the '70s (and a couple of other scraps)

Full respect. My brother inlaw served in NI during the 70s.

 

[Lady Penelope]

It upsets me thinking about it. It upsets me hearing my dad talk about it, which he still does. It upsets me that football supporters in those days behaved very badly, and some still do. The best thing Forest can do now is to continue to support LFC and the HSA in all that they do. The HSA is not just for LFC fans either. The next thing that Forest fans can do is not be intimidated by the minority of fans of LFC who behave badly, and to behave impeccably themselves. Not just the sign on song either. I am told that back in those days Forest fans were not exactly angels. Let's put the blame where it belongs, that's the Police, the FA, Thatcher's government, Sheffield Wednesday and their 'safety certificate', and, most importantly, the fans of both clubs who were boozed up and looking for a fight.
Stay classy Forest.

 

[Rockabilly]

Let's put the blame where it belongs, that's the Police, the FA, Thatcher's government, Sheffield Wednesday and their 'safety certificate', and, most importantly, the fans of both clubs who were boozed up and looking for a fight.
Stay classy Forest.

I saw NO boozed up Forest fans. All the pubs my pals and i tried to get in near the ground, were full of Liverpool supporters. Due to that fact, most NFFC fans were in the ground well before kick off. I myself certainly saw NO evidence of NFFC fans looking for a fight.

What about fans of LFC that turned up without tickets?

Think carefully where you put the BLAME, IF you were NOT there on that fateful day.

You can't go in the witness box if you weren't a witness.

 

[Carlos]

Every year..

The one thing I'll give the Scouse lot (f***ing shock horror here as I give them f*** all usually) is they just have a thread where you post a full stop to remember. It stops the bickering and threads such as this repeating over and over.

I'm taking absolutely nothing away from the people there and the people who lived through it, I just think that this topic should be put to bed now. It never ends well as spoken about above and never leaves anyone looking "good"

It's been done over and over and the outcome on threads such as this one, is always the same.

 

[Cloughie1975]

I saw NO boozed up Forest fans. All the pubs my pals and i tried to get in near the ground, were full of Liverpool supporters. Due to that fact, most NFFC fans were in the ground well before kick off. I myself certainly saw NO evidence of NFFC fans looking for a fight.

What about fans of LFC that turned up without tickets?

Think carefully where you put the blame IF you were NOT there on that fateful day.

I can’t believe that the same Liverpool fans weren’t at Hillsborough the previous season
for exactly the same occasion,Rocka (maybe some arrived without tickets then as well).
The difference was the organisation-I went with my brother and we arrived in our seats at
around 2.30.It was patently obvious something was seriously wrong as there were bare
gaps on the terracing at the Liverpool end whereas the previous season the terrace was evenly packed by that time.
No one has ever asked the question WHY there were massive spaces on the terracing at 2.30?
The enquiry seemed to concentrate on the crowd surge just before and after the game started.
The organisation was clearly sadly lacking-which shouldn’t have been the case given the
previous season went smoothly with (as I said) almost certainly the same people present.