Forest Early History - sponsored by I‘m Red Till Dead

[Otis Redding]

Re: Forest Early History

I thought some of you might find this article Forest's early years interesting.

http://www.lentontimes.co.uk/back_issues/issue_4/issue_4_12.htm

I came across it looking for info on the Parkside ground. I came across a report of the game in the Notts Guardian (Feb 6th). Apparently we lost 6-1 to Derby there in February 1885. Forest played into a strong wind on the sloped pitch in the first half. Derby, fresh in the first half, with the wind at their back scored 5 times. The Forest side tired in the second half from trying to force the ball thorugh the wind, did pull own back, but Derby then scored their sixth.

I don't know if you're aware IRTD, but some remains of what would've been a cornerstone of the original terracing is still in existence on the recreation land on Derby Road which now occupies the site where the Parkside Ground was.

 

[Fisht5]

Re: Forest Early History

Forman brothers, Frank & Fred, (bro in laws great uncles I think) were first brothers to play for England. They were signed from Derby & were involved with the club until their death. Frank was given life membership with the club & strangely this has been passed down to relatives who currently still have membership within the club although this is likely to be non-executive.

Also, me owed man, has been researching information about the Nottingham Exhibition around the turn of century which was situated on the corner of Trentside, where the Rushcliffe Civic Building is. unfortunately, not long after opening, there was a huge fire which destroyed the exhibition but also the old Main Stand at the City Ground which was smack bang next to it. This resulted in stand being burned to the ground in which housed also all the offices (including records/paperwork) changing rooms etc.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

Forman brothers, Frank & Fred, (bro in laws great uncles I think) were first brothers to play for England. They were signed from Derby & were involved with the club until their death. Frank was given life membership with the club & strangely this has been passed down to relatives who currently still have membership within the club although this is likely to be non-executive.

Also, me owed man, has been researching information about the Nottingham Exhibition around the turn of century which was situated on the corner of Trentside, where the Rushcliffe Civic Building is. unfortunately, not long after opening, there was a huge fire which destroyed the exhibition but also the old Main Stand at the City Ground which was smack bang next to it. This resulted in stand being burned to the ground in which housed also all the offices (including records/paperwork) changing rooms etc.

Here's the report from the Derby Daily Telegraph the following Monday -

(Derby Daily Telegraph, Monday, July 4th 1904)

BIG FIRE AT NOTTINGHAM EXHIBITION.

FOREST F.C. STAND DESTROYED.

A serious fire occurred at Nottingham on Saturday evening, by which the greater portion of the Midlands Exhibition and the main stand of the Nottingham Forest Football Club, on the City Ground adjoining, were destroyed. Information of the outbreak was received at the Central Fire Station about nine o’clock and three steamers attended. The fire broke out near the fairy river, at the rear of the exhibition, the scenery from some unexplained cause getting alight.

The flames spread with startling rapidity, the American toboggan, the switchback, and the circular railway quickly becoming involved, and defying all the efforts of the brigade, although a copious amount of water was obtainable from the river Trent adjoining. The heat from the flames was so intense that the boundary fence separating the exhibition from the Nottingham Forest Football Ground got alight, and despite the efforts of the brigade, the flames spread to the main stand, which in a very short space of time was reduced to a smouldering wreck. The Canadian water chute was also completely destroyed, and the heat of the flames distorted the iron work into all sorts of shapes. Fortunately the efforts of the firemen, which were principally directed towards preventing the spread of the flames to the main buildings at the front of the exhibition, proved successful, and in an hour’s time the fire had been got well under. There were a few hundred people in the exhibition at the time of the outbreak, but only a few were at the rear part, and all got out without any trouble whatever to join the many thousand sightseers who thronged Trent Bridge and the banks of the Trent.

It is impossible to ascertain the exact amount of the damage at present, but it must amount to several thousand pounds. The principal losers are the Nottingham Forest Football Club, the damage to their stand being between £3,000 and £4000, which is only partially covered by insurance. Coming on top of a bad season, this is very unfortunate for the club.

It is supposed that the fire originated through someone throwing down a lighted match or cigar or cigarette end.


I guess that the lack of insurance to cover the loss of the stand may have contributed hugely to the drop in position the following season (3rd bottom 1904-5) and the relegation to the second division in 1905-6.

 

[valspoodle]

Re: Forest Early History

We seem to have had remarkably bad luck through the years with fires destroying early records of the club as well as property and buildings. Fortunately we haven't lost people in the fires.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

Our first floodlit game?

(Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser - Saturday 02 November 1878 )

BIRMINGHAM v NOTTINGHAM FOREST

THE ELECTRIC LIGHT


A Football match was played at Birmingham on Monday night, by aid of the electric light, between the Birmingham and Nottingham Forest clubs. There were 12 lights, which gave a capital view of the game, although portions of the centre of the ground were scarcely so light as might have been wished. The unfavourable state of the weather was against the experiment being a decided success. The Nottingham men were on the ground at half past seven: they kicked off once or twice. The game was interrupted through the wind extinguishing one of the lights, but it was immediately set right. The game ended in favour of favour of Birmingham, with two goals to one. The general impression was that a white ball would suit better than the one now in use.

(Note: The game appears to have been played on October 28th. In the same issue was a report on a rugby game played under lights, between Broughton and Swinton played 6 days earlier.)

I did a little research and this looks like it may have been the second football match under floodlight, third if you count the rugby football game between Broughton and Swinton. Next seems to have been a game at Darwen on October 31st and then one at Blackburn on November 4th when they used a white ball.

There was also an report at the start of November where the council at Burnley wanted to hold a floodlit game. They didn't see the fact that they didn;t have a recognised football team as a problem, because, "the people would be coming to see the lights".

 

[winnits]

I read somewhere that the great innovator Sam Weller Widdowson experimented with gas floodlights but it was abortive due to safety risks. Forget where though.

 

[Wes' Organ]

Re: Forest Early History

Forman brothers, Frank & Fred, (bro in laws great uncles I think) were first brothers to play for England. They were signed from Derby & were involved with the club until their death. Frank was given life membership with the club & strangely this has been passed down to relatives who currently still have membership within the club although this is likely to be non-executive.

Also, me owed man, has been researching information about the Nottingham Exhibition around the turn of century which was situated on the corner of Trentside, where the Rushcliffe Civic Building is. unfortunately, not long after opening, there was a huge fire which destroyed the exhibition but also the old Main Stand at the City Ground which was smack bang next to it. This resulted in stand being burned to the ground in which housed also all the offices (including records/paperwork) changing rooms etc.

Are they anything to do with the Evening Post Formans?

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

Our first seated season ticket offering?



(Nottingham Evening Post August 10th 1894)

 

[Strummer]

Re: Forest Early History

Our first seated season ticket offering?

View attachment 9169

(Nottingham Evening Post August 10th 1894)

£2 2s a seat. Pretty good value.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

Early game against County

( Sporting Life – Wednesday December 19th 1866 )

NOTTINGHAMSHIRE CLUB V FOREST CLUB

A match between these clubs was played on the Meadows Cricket Ground on Thursday last. The ball kicked off punctually to the call of time, and after a very sharp struggle, Walter Lymberry by a very fine kick scored the first goal for the Forest Club. The Notts men had now the help of the wind, and making the most of it, they gained a capital goal. For the third event a strong fight was kept up until the call of time when the game was pronounced a draw. The two sides contained the names of several of Nottinghamshire’s best cricketers.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

I found a copy of the early Sheffield Football rules. Not the primary rules we would have played by in our early days, but they are the rules we would have played when playing our early games away against Sheffield clubs. Also as I understand it a number of the Sheffield rules were adopted by the Football association to get the Northern clubs to adopt the Assuciation rules, giving a single set of rules for the game.


( The Sporting Life, Wednesday March 13th, 1867 )

SHEFFIELD FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION

The annual meeting of the various Sheffield clubs forming the association, which had been adjourned in order to allow time for the consideration of the rules adopted metropolitan clubs, was held at the Adolphi Hotel on Wednesday evening last, the 7th inst.; H. W. Chambers, esq. (honorary secretary of the Sheffield club), president of the association, in the chair. The clubs of Sheffield were well represented, as many as thirteen clubs sending representatives. After the preliminary business the rules as lately adopted by the London Association were taken into consideration, and the amendments proposed by the representatives of the thirteen clubs duly discussed. After a long and protracted discussion, a code of rules was formed, which we give below:-

1. The maximum length of the ground shall be 200 yards. The maximum breadth shall be 100 yards; the length and breadth should be marked off with flags, and the goals shall be upright posts, for yards apart with a bar across them nine feet from the ground, and two flags to be called the rouge flags, shall be placed one on each side, and in line with the goal and 4 yards distant from it with a bar across them nine feet from the ground.

2. The winners of the toss shall have the choice of goals. The game shall be commenced by a place-kick from the centre of the ground by the side losing the toss; the other side shall not approach within ten yards from the ball until is kicked off.

3. After a goal is won the losing side shall kick-off, and goals shall be challenged; but if, in playing a match, half the specified time shall expire without a goal being obtained, the side shall exchange goals, the kick-off being from the middle in the same direction as at the commencement of the game.

4. A goal shall be won when the ball passes between the goal-posts under the tape, not being thrown, knocked on or carried.

5. When the ball is in touch, a player of the opposite side to that which has kicked it out shall throw it from the point on the boundary line where it left the ground, in a direction at right angles with the boundary line, and it shall not be in play until it has touched the ground, and the player throwing it in shall not play it until it has played by another player.

6. Any player between an opponent’s goal and goal-keeper (unless he has followed the ball there) is off-side and out of play. The goal-keeper is that player on the defending side who for the time being is nearest to his own goal.

7. When the ball is kicked behind the goal-line, or over the bars of the goal or rouge flags, it must be kicked-off by the side between whose goal it went, within six yards from the limit of their goal. The side who thus kick the ball are entitled to a fair kick off in whatever way they please, the opposite side not being allowed to approach within six yards of the ball. In case the ball is kicked between the rouge flags, under the bar, the side kicking it shall be entitled to score one rouge, and the ball shall be kicked out by the defending side as before mentioned.

8. A goal outweighs any number of rouges. Should no goal, or an equal number of goals be obtained, the match is decided by rouges.

9. No player shall hold or carry the ball, or knock or push it with the hand or arm. The side breaking this rule forfeits a free kick to the opposite side, and the offending side shall not approach within three yards of the kicker, but nothing in this rule shall extend to drive them to stand behind their goal line.

10. No goal or rouge shall be obtained by a free kick from a penalty.

11. Neither tripping nor backing shall be allowed, and no player shall use his hands to hold or push his adversary.

12. A player shall no throw the ball or pass it to another.

13. No player shall take the ball from the ground with his hands while it is in play, under any pretence whatever.

14. No player shall wear spikes, projecting nails, or iron plates on the shoes or heals of his boots.

Definition of terms.

A “place-kick” is a kick at the ball while it is on the ground in any position in which the kicker may choose to place it.
A “free-kick” is the privilege of kicking at the ball without obstruction in such manner as the kicker may think fit.
“Hacking” is kicking an adversary intentionally.
“Tripping” is throwing an adversary by use of the legs.
“Knocking-on” is when a player strikes or propels the ball with his hands or arms.
“Holding” includes the obstruction of a player by the hands or any part of the arm below the elbow.
“Touch” is that part of the field on either side of the ground which is beyond the line of the flags.

 

[winnits]

We should bring back rouges!

 

[Deforest]

Re: Forest Early History

We should bring back rouges!

I was thinking the same. I've heard of games being decided on corners if the score was equal. Rouges would be better, then we should resign Cox.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

Forest Founder J H Rastall appears to be Joseph Herbert Rastall whose birth was registered in the Basford District in Q3 1845.

He appears to have been a volunteer of the Robin Hoods as his shooting scores appear in the Notts Guardian dated Friday May 26th 1865 -



Iy seems that he died in the US in 1894 - www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=69997002

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

This article confirms he wore the Garibaldi jacket of the Robin Hoods -




(Notts Guardian, Friday, 26 May 1865)

The Notts Guardian dated June 10th 1864 shows that there was a W Browne in the same company as Rastall. Could this be the W Brown shown on Forests list of founders Names are often misspelled in newspapers (Brown is a very common name though))

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

The picture shows Forest away at Man U in 1911. We had a very strange looking away kit in those days (late 1900s to early 1910s) - white with a contrasting band, of what I would imagine was red, around the shoulder line.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Re: Forest Early History

So if no goals were being scored under Sheffield rules, they'd just change over and kick towards the other goals! And it seems like they played with 'rush' goalies?

As for offsides, it looks like a player had to have one opposition player between him and the goal to be standing onside then. I think general football rules early in the 20th century said it had to be two players plus the (full-time) goalkeeper, or three players. I think players used to dribble the ball (or charge with it) much more than pass it (and that offside rule would be a reason to do that I think), but that in Scotland they started to develop the 'push and run' style. Then in about 1925 or something the offside rule was changed to say only two players needed to be between the player and the goal for him to be onside, and the goals per game rate went up (and I suppose more passes, but maybe more long crosses into the box too, got played). And then teams started switching from 2-3-5 to 3-2-5 I think. That's what I've picked up pretty much anyway but interesting that under Sheffield rules only the 'goal-keeper' was required to be between the player and the goal.

 

[Otis Redding]

Re: Forest Early History

The picture shows Forest away at Man U in 1911. We had a very strange looking away kit in those days (late 1900s to early 1910s) - white with a contrasting ban, of what I would imagine was red, around the shoulder line.

It was a fairly common design around that period.

 

[winnits]

Aye, I think Maverick has some of those in his replica kit collection from his teenage years

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

I haven't managed to find a copy of the Nottingham rules, but this report would suggest that offside was not part of it -



(Nottinghamshire Guardian, Friday, February 11th, 1870)

SOUTH DERBYSHIRE V NOTTINGHAM FOREST CLUB


This match was played at Borrowash on Saturday last, Feb. 5, on a wretched ground. The ball was kicked off by the Foresters at 5 minutes past three, and game was called at 10 minutes past five.

South Derbyshire obtained three goals and three rouges to nothing; all were got in the first 50 minutes, on account of the Foresters having to play very different rules to their own, one of which is called off-side, a most ridiculous rule. For the last hour and a quarter the game was well contested.

The following is a list of the players:-

Forest Club: W. R. Lymbery (captain), W. H. Revis, T. G. Howitt, Wm. Brown, J. G. Richardson, S. W. Widdowson, R. P. Hawksley, H. Davies, W. B. Crisp, R. F. Hardy, T. Woodhouse, W. P. Brown, F. A. Robinson, J. Tomlinson, and J. White.

South Derbyshire: Messrs. L. Stein (captain), Ellis, Cade, Coates, Gadsby, Aldred, Sharp, Bennett, Chambers, Slater, Charlton, Smith, Titterington, Gibbs, and La Trobe.

Goals were got by Slater and Ellis; rouges by Slater, Sharp and Gibbs.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

I came across an interview in a Lancashire newspaper, with Tinsley Lindley. It doesn't have too much about his Forest days, other then the introduction of the 2 3 5 system. Its mostly about playing for Cambridge, Corinthians and Preston, but there was an image of him...

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Re: Forest Early History

A graph of our league position from 1893 to the end of last season. The higher up the league structure, the lower the position number and the higher the point on the graph. So the Premier champions would rank 1, the Championship winners 23 and the team bottom of the current 2nd division ranks 92.

At some point in the future I will probably overlay the graph with the division boundaries but you can see anyway that it's been a rollercoaster ride!

 

[winnits]

Stick a line of best fit on too and we'll probably be about on par this season

 

[winnits]

Addendum - 1st in 1907? Was that when we were in the football alliance?

 

[winnits]

Addendum addendum - no, that was between 1889 and 1892. We won it in 1891-92 then were elected to the Football League first division.