Financial Fair Play (FFP)

[Strummer]

Is there timescale when we might hear our appeal judgment

Two weeks.

 

[congo_red_49]

The sewer rats from Manchester appearing on the sewers of social media gloating about Everton's inability to avoid charges or cook the books. There's so much in modern football that needs nuked. Horrible little nasty culture based on greed and individualism.

Do those same Man City fans not have the self-awareness to realise that, had there been PSR rules in the mid-2000's, they'd probably be around where Everton are now, in terms of revenue AND league position?

 

[Redemption]

sewer rats from Manchester

Horrible little nasty culture

The tribal nature of fan culture is the biggest weakness in English football.

It guarantees that fan voices will never be heard.

Strummer will be along in a minute to tell you how in Germany there are intense rivalries between fans but also a common solidarity between fans that keeps them in the game.

 

[Captain Sinister]

Football has always been about money for the rich and the powerful.
Not until Jimmy Hill and his drive for a players' representative body did the players get on the meal ticket.
Now it is the media companies, who may pump a lot of money into the EPL, but they wouldn't do it unless they were taking many times that investment back from ad fees, subscriptions etc.
The fans never stand a chance.

 

[Strummer]

Strummer will be along in a minute to tell you how in Germany there are intense rivalries between fans but also a common solidarity between fans that keeps them in the game.

It is true - fans here are absolutely tribal, but we are all capable of getting together in a coordinated way, when the need arises - like the the successful protests against Monday-night matches (stopped after fan backlash) and the recent protests against potential external investment in return for a chunk of broadcast revenue (again stopped after massive fan protests aligned between the various clubs‘ „Ultra“ groups).

There are some genuine rivalries (Eintracht fans hate everyone else, and everyone hates Bayern, for example) but common sense breaks out when there is a cause that requires a common, united approach, and supporters all get along together.

Apart from Karlsruhe SC, f*** those untermenschen.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

I agree with this, and so will now probably contradict my previous post! Spiralling transfer fees and player salaries are not sustainable. The structural problem that drives this is the fact that most premier league clubs have ceased to be commercial businesses. They are perpetually loss-making organisations funded by owners for whom prestige, reputation, or just having come fun with their wealth are the primary motivations. And this absence of commercial constraints does drive up the costs for everyone.

However, I can understand the frustration of Marinakis and other owners who have the funds to invest, but are prevented from doing so.

It’s not easy, but there has to be a better balance between financial sustainability and allowing investment from ambitious owners.

Perhaps an absolute cap on squad costs (amortisation and salaries) could put an upper limit spending but allow ambitious owners to compete in the same basis as the big boys?

However its more than that, Chelsea and City arent the problem its Arsenal, United and Liverpool. City and Chelsea are a symptom of clubs like Arsenal United and Liverpool. Basically the only way to compete with those 3 is owner investment. There isnt enough mobility in the system. Globalisation and "glory supporters" have basically made competiveness so much worse. Really Forest has no right to be in a league with United, Liverpool and Arsenal. United have a supposed fan base of 500 mill - 1 Billion fan base. Its like a cornershop trying to compete with a supermarket.

So basically there needs to be a structual change where the fanbases arent gamed in the system if you want keep competiveness that is. So I dont begrudge City or Chelsea because thats the only to compete. They are to me like the antiheroes. Yes its not the right way of doing it but I am glad they showing a mirror back to the big boys. Unless we have some better shared revenue system or salaray caps football is only going to get more and more elitist. Every metric of competitveness has got worse since the premier league started. Less teams winning the league, less teams qualifying for Europe, less teams winning European competitions. When was the last time a team not from the big 5 leagues won the champions league? Porto I bet with Mourinho its just getting stale.

By the way I totally sysmpathise with Maranakis as well; because it must be frustrating to see clubs use money to gain an advantage and not yourself be allowed to spend.

 

[redordead]

Two weeks.

Andy Reid 2 weeks ?

 

[Red Ray's Redlist]

I'd be interested to get a legal view, but from my lay perspective if the EPL have set up a system the relies upon losses specified within their own framework (so not an existing accounting standard) it is also their role to police that all clubs under their auspices use the correct reporting lines to register all incoming and outgoings to determine what the PSR losses should be. This would mitigate againsy any creative accounting.

On that basis the EPL would have to be able to demonstrate that under the period that PSR has been in situ they have carried this role out to illustrate a consistency of the application of the rules.
This would include promotion bonuses being treated as a loss for all promoted clubs since PSR was introduced.
Likewise loss restatements. If this is allowable for previous periods why are we not able to restate our Covid losses based upon the EPL rules to ensure a consistent approach with the other EPL clubs in the pursuit of fair sporting competition.

 

[Rockabilly]

F**K 'EM!!! That's what I say!

 

[Robertson]

Really Forest has no right to be in a league with United, Liverpool and Arsenal. United have a supposed fan base of 500 mill - 1 Billion fan base.

Erm... no, disagree. We do have that right.

Marinakis doesn't have the right the bankrput the club trying to compete with them financially, yes.

And as far as I can tell he hasn't come close to doing that. I expect the FFP/PSR restrictions will have reined him in somewhat there though.

 

[Notcher]

Simon Jordans take and FWIW he does fight our corner.

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[Notcher]

I'd be interested to get a legal view, but from my lay perspective if the EPL have set up a system the relies upon losses specified within their own framework (so not an existing accounting standard) it is also their role to police that all clubs under their auspices use the correct reporting lines to register all incoming and outgoings to determine what the PSR losses should be. This would mitigate againsy any creative accounting.

On that basis the EPL would have to be able to demonstrate that under the period that PSR has been in situ they have carried this role out to illustrate a consistency of the application of the rules.
This would include promotion bonuses being treated as a loss for all promoted clubs since PSR was introduced.
Likewise loss restatements. If this is allowable for previous periods why are we not able to restate our Covid losses based upon the EPL rules to ensure a consistent approach with the other EPL clubs in the pursuit of fair sporting competition.

To encapsulate this, consistency is key and it will be to our legal argument (which it will turn into). I mentioned previously that I believe the main intention of us taking the appeal is to uncover inconsistencies in process and application. When you unearth these it gives you very strong mitigation in law and more to the point the sanctions.

 

[DB1702]

To encapsulate this, consistency is key and it will be to our legal argument (which it will turn into). I mentioned previously that I believe the main intention of us taking the appeal is to uncover inconsistencies in process and application. When you unearth these it gives you very strong mitigation in law and more to the point the sanctions.

What’s your honest view on the chances we get any points back?


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[Captain Sinister]

To encapsulate this, consistency is key and it will be to our legal argument (which it will turn into). I mentioned previously that I believe the main intention of us taking the appeal is to uncover inconsistencies in process and application. When you unearth these it gives you very strong mitigation in law and more to the point the sanctions.

And that is not going to be settled either before the season ends, or before the new season starts.
There is a complex chess game being played out, and the loser will be English football.

 

[Notcher]

What’s your honest view on the chances we get any points back?


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I think we'll get 1 if we're lucky

 

[oxonred]

Why can’t rich owners just make up the difference in allowable losses?

 

[EmmersonForest4]

Erm... no, disagree. We do have that right.

Marinakis doesn't have the right the bankrput the club trying to compete with them financially, yes.

And as far as I can tell he hasn't come close to doing that. I expect the FFP/PSR restrictions will have reined him in somewhat there though.

Of course we have a right cause we are here but the revenue difference between the 2 clubs means it’s massive chasm. So morally we do but this isn’t a competitive field.

 

[Captain Sinister]

Why can’t rich owners just make up the difference in allowable losses?

Because that would lead to an unlevel playing field...

 

[Statto]

I can take it from an insolvency perspective, the losses would not be allowed to continue. There would have to be restructuring to ensure that they are brought right down. The biggest factor in that being player salaries, it would be insistent on future salaries and signings being brought right down. This is where the issue lies and always has been. Everyone is trying to skirt around the issue which is blindingly obvious. Reduce the ridiculous salaries and transfer fees. There are fixes to this.

The problem here is that even if the EPL did decide to cut transfer fees and salaries, it would work against them when competing against other leagues, unless they also did.

So you'd need that kind of thing to come from FIFA or you'd no doubt get our best players like Saka popping off to Saudi to play in a tinpot league just because they pay more.

The whole thing needs to implode naturally as opposed to imposing limits on spending which ultimately are limiting a business from trading as it needs to.

If there was an insolvency issue then the clubs would collapse and FFP doesn't stop this from happening anyway.

 

[Flaggers]

What’s your honest view on the chances we get any points back?


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If the PL has any survival instincts, they'll give us all 4 back - alternatively they will find themselves in court in May I'm sure

 

[Captain Sinister]

If the PL has any survival instincts, they'll give us all 4 back - alternatively they will find themselves in court in May I'm sure

However, if they give us our 4 back, they will almost certainly have to give Everton their 8 points back.
That will effectively mean that the prosecutions of Man City and chelsea etc will never happen (no change there then), but it would also open the door completely to the Ombudsman/Government regulator.

 

[oxonred]

Because that would lead to an unlevel playing field...

And it isn’t already???

 

[Redemption]

consistency is key and it will be to our legal argument (which it will turn into).

In our submission to the Commision we literally argued for every case to consider by it's merits and for there to be no consistency. We argued the case on our "unique position". The commission broadly agreed with this finding, "the context behind a breach should be understood."

Would we go to the appeal and say our legal argument to the commision was wrong?

is that like asking them please litigate again as we want a finding that is consistent with Everton's, as we're not so unique after all.

 

[Project Zeus]

If the PL has any survival instincts, they'll give us all 4 back - alternatively they will find themselves in court in May I'm sure

Whatever is in place at the end of May will be how the League lines up in August for the next season. There's no way they will relegate a team in June based on an appeal outcome after the clubs have already started planning for another PL season.

My assumption is that the PL are hoping that Forest and Everton both survive on points with current reductions and that their fate (and therefore Luton's) can't be altered by restoring any points.

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[Notcher]

In our submission to the Commision we literally argued for every case to consider by it's merits and for there to be no consistency. We argued the case on our "unique position". The commission broadly agreed with this finding, "the context behind a breach should be understood."

Would we go to the appeal and say our legal argument to the commision was wrong?

is that like asking them please litigate again as we want a finding that is consistent with Everton's, as we're not so unique after all.

We didn't ask for their to be inconsistency we asked for it to be argued on its own merit. That's not to ask for inconsistency in the application of process, or application of sanctions.