Financial Fair Play (FFP)

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Gave me a giggle...

 

[Joe Baker's Dog]

Slightly more upbeat view from another football financial expert on the latest Garibaldi Red podcast

To spare you 25 mins of your life

- Thinks Everton's punishment will be reduced on appeal on basis that it was way too harsh
- Thinks this will have an impact on Forest situation
- Thinks Johnson sale is strong mitigating circumstance

Sorry no dog references

I hope you're right.

 

[Listen 'ere young man]

It would be hilarious if a decade of winning trophies are stripped from the Man City's cabinet and they are back to square one whenever their case is ruled upon.

 

[Bonalair]

Gave me a giggle...

Except you know deep down it was written by a fan of someone else in the big 6, probably Liverpool.

As an eternal optimist (when it comes to Forest anyway, I’m a right pessimist on all other subjects, I’ve clearly got it the wrong way round with hindsight):

We have confirmed we are in breach of the rules in terms of the numbers. WE Confirmed that to THEM. Because we’ve accounted properly and we know what it says

We have done that having discussed the BJ situation with them at the time

We haven’t tried to falsify or cheat the figures (we don’t think, certainly nothing suggests it)

Chill your beans, we’ve got a nice honest case to put before the tribunal.

Therefore slap on the wrist, maybe a fine, off we go.

Then the rules change, we get bigger allowance, buy another 30 players, wakawaka, it’s the circle of life.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Then the rules change, we get bigger allowance, buy another 30 players, wakawaka, it’s the circle of life.

This really is the scary thing.

Our Greek overlords have already proven a complete inability to learn from their mistakes in this area, so I've little faith that anything which happens here is going to improve them sadly.

Forever the optimist that feeling is wrong though. Would love nothing more than to be proved wrong with 3-4 quality, bargain signings for key areas the only buys in the next few windows whilst the squad is thinned out.

 

[Dawg]

Is the 'minimum 6 pts' punishment truth or just guesswork? I keep hearing that there's no fixed formula for any punishment but some media outlets are reporting that 6pts is the bassline and instant punishment if you're found guilty.

 

[Apollo11]

@Alf-engelos Mindminackers genuine question.

Would you have rather they didn't spend that extra money in January and more than likely get relegated? Or they do what they did,you get an extra year in the Premierleague and then possibly get relegated due to any points deduction?(hoping you don't get relegated by the way)

Obviously it's not a pleasant situation to be in but even if it results in relegation it's been an extra year in the Premierleague which you probably wouldn't have with extra revenue and increasing your players value, from a financial perspective it still made sense.

There's so much vitriol from posters about the owners but even in the worse case scenario,to me at least,it seems financially they've still made the right decision.

 

[IJPS]

View attachment 32444
Will these dogs do for yers?

Wow (dog pun)

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

@Alf-engelos Mindminackers genuine question.

Would you have rather they didn't spend that extra money in January and more than likely get relegated? Or they do what they did,you get an extra year in the Premierleague and then possibly get relegated due to any points deduction?(hoping you don't get relegated by the way)

Obviously it's not a pleasant situation to be in but even if it results in relegation it's been an extra year in the Premierleague which you probably wouldn't have with extra revenue and increasing your players value, from a financial perspective it still made sense.

There's so much vitriol from posters about the owners but even in the worse case scenario,to me at least,it seems financially they've still made the right decision.

We could have easily have not spent that money and still stayed up. Heck, given a proper, settled recruitment setup we could have signed the Prem equivalent of Davis & Surridge for far less than Wood for example, and have signed better players with more resell value.

Trying to justify our action just coz Cooper performed miracles with the shitty situation created by excessive signings, some not fit for purpose, is fugazi IMO.

And it's not about 1 window to me, it's about years of poor operational practices which dragged us down to the bottom of the Championship, and now threaten to set us back on that path again. Those practices need to change, but it may already be too late sadly. Let's hope not.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

@Alf-engelos Mindminackers genuine question.

Would you have rather they didn't spend that extra money in January and more than likely get relegated? Or they do what they did,you get an extra year in the Premierleague and then possibly get relegated due to any points deduction?(hoping you don't get relegated by the way)

Obviously it's not a pleasant situation to be in but even if it results in relegation it's been an extra year in the Premierleague which you probably wouldn't have with extra revenue and increasing your players value, from a financial perspective it still made sense.

There's so much vitriol from posters about the owners but even in the worse case scenario,to me at least,it seems financially they've still made the right decision.

There deserves to be anger and lots of it but not viriol though. Anger becomes vitriol to me when its personal abuse so "the fat greek" to me is complete vitriol and its not called for. However saying "the ownerships are complete amateurs for letting this happen and its very Fawaz", to me thats anger. So depends where you draw the line. I dont think its unreasonable to get very angry at the ownership about such an amazing cock up really.

Also what I will say to @Alf-engelos Mindminackers is that we needed a lot of players last summer and also in this day and age the manager dosent always pick the players that are signed. So I thinks its very lazy to have a go at the amount of players we signed. I did a post last season which showed the carcas of a squad we had left after promotion. Just look at it.....

Horvath
Smith
Samba - (wanted to leave)

Worrall
Mbe Soh
Laryea
Panzo
Mckenna
Cook

Colback
Ojeda
Cafu
Yates

Surridge
Mighten
Silva
Johnson

I agree though that there some wastage and Bowler and Hwang were mental really. We shouldnt have been signing anyone that we werent gonna give some minutes to, because as shown above we needed depth and quality drastically.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

There deserves to be anger and lots of it but not viriol though. Anger becomes vitriol to me when its personal abuse so "the fat greek" to me is complete vitriol and its not called for. However saying "the ownerships are complete amateurs for letting this happen and its very Fawaz", to me thats anger. So depends where you draw the line. I dont think its unreasonable to get very angry at the ownership about such an amazing cock up really.

Also what I will say to @Alf-engelos Mindminackers is that we needed a lot of players last summer and also in this dat and age the manager dosent always pick the players that are signed. So I thinks its very lazy to have a go at the amount of players we signed. I did a post last season which showed the carcas of a squad we had left after promotion. Just look at it.....

Horvath
Smith
Samba - (wanted to leave)

Worrall
Mbe Soh
Laryea
Panzo
Mckenna
Cook

Colback
Ojeda
Cafu
Yates

Surridge
Mighten
Silva
Johnson

I agree though that there some wastage and Bowler and Hwang were mental really. We shouldnt have been signing anyone that we werent gonna give some minutes to, because as shown above we needed depth and quality drastically.

Well said, I wouldn't even call it anger tbh, just stating facts.

And I completely get the need for lots of players last summer, it's the numerous other windows where they've piled sub-par players with no real plan on the manager which have created my concerns though.

 

[Redemption]

Is the 'minimum 6 pts' punishment truth or just guesswork? I keep hearing that there's no fixed formula for any punishment but some media outlets are reporting that 6pts is the bassline and instant punishment if you're found guilty.

It depends.

I read a lawyerly account of the Everton Commission report, where it references a communication sent by the EPL to clubs in February of last year which supposedly outlined this unpubished guidance.

It is regularly repeated that Richard Master's quoted this guidance in his evidence to the Commission in summing up how the EPL believed the Commission should arrive at a punishment.

However, the Commission report itself says the opposite. It said there was "no fixed formula to be applied." Their job, as a Commission, was to use their discretion to the "extent" of the punishment.

I saw another Everton related comment, which at the time I had understood to come from the club in launching its appeal, that there should be such a formula. Andy Burnham, the former MP and current Mayor of Greater Manchester and Toffee season ticket holder, expanded on this saying the tarrif should be transparent so that Everton's appeal could be about the scale of the overspend - the club claim it was a £few million, the commission found it was £19 million. If the appeal were be upheld, and treated by the Tariff, then Everton might get a six or seven point deduction.

I'm sure others can find other examples and my recall and interpretation could be wrong. But what we're left with is a lack of clarity and transparency.

Yet, even if we knew the tarrif, it wouldn't help us until we know the extent of the overspend. I'm sure, we'll find out in time.

 

[Strummer]

I suppose that’s why they are called the „Independent Commission“ rather than being a simple rubber-stamp exercise.

 

['mist rollin in']

There's so much vitriol from posters about the owners but even in the worse case scenario,to me at least,it seems financially they've still made the right decision.

We’ve breached FFP that could result in a points deduction, so ‘financially’ they’ve made the wrong decision. I said earlier - the rules are stupid, but we need to abide by them. We shouldn’t have been banking on the sale of one player to keep us in the rules.

I admire the ambition of Marinakis and I’ve no doubt there are worse owners, but he needs to sort the recruitment out. The scatter gun approach to transfers has to change.

Honestly, sometimes I’ll see a social media post from Forest thanking a player for their service and I think… Is he still here or when did we sign him!!

No vitriol from me, just honest criticism

 

[congo_red_49]

And I completely get the need for lots of players last summer, it's the numerous other windows where they've piled sub-par players with no real plan on the manager which have created my concerns though.

This is the nail being hit squarely on the head.
Far too many occasions it's felt like:-

Recruitment: "Here, have a keeper"
Manager: "Thanks, is he good with his feet, because we want to try and play it out quickly from the back?"
Recruitment: "Dunno, but he's played for Arsenal, so he must be good"

Recruitment: "Here, have a wing-back"
Manager: "Thanks, but we're trying to move to a back 4, is he good at full-back"
Recruitment: "Who cares? He's won a World Cup!"

Recruitment: "Here's that striker you wanted."
Manager: "Great, he's got pace like we needed?"
Recruitment: "Lol, he scores goals, what more do you want?"

 

[EmmersonForest4]

This is the nail being hit squarely on the head.
Far too many occasions it's felt like:-

Recruitment: "Here, have a keeper"
Manager: "Thanks, is he good with his feet, because we want to try and play it out quickly from the back?"
Recruitment: "Dunno, but he's played for Arsenal, so he must be good"

Recruitment: "Here, have a wing-back"
Manager: "Thanks, but we're trying to move to a back 4, is he good at full-back"
Recruitment: "Who cares? He's won a World Cup!"

Recruitment: "Here's that striker you wanted."
Manager: "Great, he's got pace like we needed?"
Recruitment: "Lol, he scores goals, what more do you want?"

Problem is Cooper wanted Wood so that one is on Coops!

 

[football post]

This is the nail being hit squarely on the head.
Far too many occasions it's felt like:-

Recruitment: "Here, have a keeper"
Manager: "Thanks, is he good with his feet, because we want to try and play it out quickly from the back?"
Recruitment: "Dunno, but he's played for Arsenal, so he must be good"

Recruitment: "Here, have a wing-back"
Manager: "Thanks, but we're trying to move to a back 4, is he good at full-back"
Recruitment: "Who cares? He's won a World Cup!"

Recruitment: "Here's that striker you wanted."
Manager: "Great, he's got pace like we needed?"
Recruitment: "Lol, he scores goals, what more do you want?"

From the outside that is exactly how it appeared, no one was researched properly. The Management, Coaching staff and Recruitment team need to be meeting regularly and be in agreement when it comes to transfers.
And I don't mean agreeing that a player does a nice dance on tik-tok.

 

[Berkshire Red]

We could have easily have not spent that money and still stayed up. Heck, given a proper, settled recruitment setup we could have signed the Prem equivalent of Davis & Surridge for far less than Wood for example, and have signed better players with more resell value.

Trying to justify our action just coz Cooper performed miracles with the shitty situation created by excessive signings, some not fit for purpose, is fugazi IMO.

And it's not about 1 window to me, it's about years of poor operational practices which dragged us down to the bottom of the Championship, and now threaten to set us back on that path again. Those practices need to change, but it may already be too late sadly. Let's hope not.

Alf, you're spot on in some places but expecting miracles in others.

Signing the Premier League equivalent of David and Surridge isn't easy, if it were several the clubs in the Premier League would be doing it. We were lucky with Keinan Davis, in fact you could argue we've signed his equivalent many times before and you, and I, have moaned about it when they get injured. Davis playing as many games as he did for us was a fluke, and had we signed him last summer permanently we'd have a(nother) crock on our books. Surridge was known to Coops, so we benefitted there.

I don't believe we would have stayed up without the January signings, if it was all or nothing it had to be all. With Hennessey in goal and no Felipe, I don't think we'd have stayed up.

I'm 100% in agreement that methods need to change. But. But don't expect a 180 degree about turn, that's never going to happen. What you have to hope for is a movement in the right direction, the Greeks love buying players so they will continue to do that, they just need to buy less. A leopard doesn't change its spots. It's the signings of Bowler and Hwang that really make no sense to me. You can make a case for most (if not all) of the others. And the August 31, 2023 signings don't count because the Johnson money, whichever year it goes into, still helps us out.

The only thing that dragged us to the bottom of the Championship now manages Ghana. That squad was plenty good enough for a comfortable mid-table finish in the Championship, even Mr Bean would have had us finish well away from danger. Our owners had still put together a half decent squad, it just needed a competent manager to work with it.

 

[congo_red_49]

Problem is Cooper wanted Wood so that one is on Coops!

I didn't name any names... (it was Origi)

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Problem is Cooper wanted Wood so that one is on Coops!

That's not the case dude, the recent Athletic article confirmed they were Giraldi's picks.

 

[Dawg]

It depends.

I read a lawyerly account of the Everton Commission report, where it references a communication sent by the EPL to clubs in February of last year which supposedly outlined this unpubished guidance.

It is regularly repeated that Richard Master's quoted this guidance in his evidence to the Commission in summing up how the EPL believed the Commission should arrive at a punishment.

However, the Commission report itself says the opposite. It said there was "no fixed formula to be applied." Their job, as a Commission, was to use their discretion to the "extent" of the punishment.

I saw another Everton related comment, which at the time I had understood to come from the club in launching its appeal, that there should be such a formula. Andy Burnham, the former MP and current Mayor of Greater Manchester and Toffee season ticket holder, expanded on this saying the tarrif should be transparent so that Everton's appeal could be about the scale of the overspend - the club claim it was a £few million, the commission found it was £19 million. If the appeal were be upheld, and treated by the Tariff, then Everton might get a six or seven point deduction.

I'm sure others can find other examples and my recall and interpretation could be wrong. But what we're left with is a lack of clarity and transparency.

Yet, even if we knew the tarrif, it wouldn't help us until we know the extent of the overspend. I'm sure, we'll find out in time.

thank you. Clears that up.

Who's to say any 'unpublished guidance' given from the PL to our independent commission is the same as what Everton's was. It could be totally different.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

I didn't name any names... (it was Origi)

Thought you were well on about Wood. In fairness Cooper tried a 4-3-3 in the end and Origi fits that style. When he played 4-3-3 against Luton with Wood Coops got a tune. I think Origi's problem is he just shite

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Alf, you're spot on in some places but expecting miracles in others.

Signing the Premier League equivalent of David and Surridge isn't easy, if it were several the clubs in the Premier League would be doing it. We were lucky with Keinan Davis, in fact you could argue we've signed his equivalent many times before and you, and I, have moaned about it when they get injured. Davis playing as many games as he did for us was a fluke, and had we signed him last summer permanently we'd have a(nother) crock on our books. Surridge was known to Coops, so we benefitted there.

I don't believe we would have stayed up without the January signings, if it was all or nothing it had to be all. With Hennessey in goal and no Felipe, I don't think we'd have stayed up.

I'm 100% in agreement that methods need to change. But. But don't expect a 180 degree about turn, that's never going to happen. What you have to hope for is a movement in the right direction, the Greeks love buying players so they will continue to do that, they just need to buy less. A leopard doesn't change its spots. It's the signings of Bowler and Hwang that really make no sense to me. You can make a case for most (if not all) of the others. And the August 31, 2023 signings don't count because the Johnson money, whichever year it goes into, still helps us out.

The only thing that dragged us to the bottom of the Championship now manages Ghana. That squad was plenty good enough for a comfortable mid-table finish in the Championship, even Mr Bean would have had us finish well away from danger. Our owners had still put together a half decent squad, it just needed a competent manager to work with it.

I just expect Prem standard quality on the back of that being the standard Marinakis himself demands.

Being in the Prem isn't easy, you're in amongst the elite, and I just don't think we'll stay there if we continue to operate how we have been doing pre & post Murphy. Just my opinion though.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

That's not the case dude, the recent Athletic article confirmed they were Giraldi's picks.

Sorry Alf its been reported in many places that Wood was Coops.

 

[RedRobbo]

Problem is Cooper wanted Wood so that one is on Coops!

Did he?