Financial Fair Play (FFP)

[sammy the snake]

But you are LOL, doesn't your owner also own Olympiacos

Edit: Could Olympiacos not just pay Forest silly money for a player and solve your PSR issues and everyone is happy as it is all his money anyway

Yep, MGW 100 million, loaned back to Forest at an incredible deal.

Although they’re thinking of closing this little dodge lol

 

[Robertson]

But you are LOL, doesn't your owner also own Olympiacos

Edit: Could Olympiacos not just pay Forest silly money for a player and solve your PSR issues and everyone is happy as it is all his money anyway

It's often joked about. But the reality is no because then Olympiakos will fall foul of UEFA's rules and they'd quite like to carry on playing in their competitions. Not sure what the regs are in Greece domestically. No doubt there is a bit of to and fro with respect to the finances.

 

[valspoodle]

It's funny you should say that as I've got an image of what you and Val look like. It's the same for a lot of long time posters on here, I've got an image I've created for each one.

I'm the same when I read a book. I have a vision of the major characters. If they ever make a TV series of those books I can't watch because the characters never match my ideals.

 

[RedRobbo]

All promotion bonuses paid to players are included in PSR calculations every year by all clubs promoted. It is specifically highlighted in the rules that they are subject to PSR. Forest was looking for an exception to the norm and they were understandably refused.

So where do you stand on the Covid losses as claimed by individual clubs. Seems to me to have been a ‘catch all‘ allowing clubs to adhere to PSR - unless you are unfortunate to have been promoted from the EFL.

 

[Villa_Fan]

It's often joked about. But the reality is no because then Olympiakos will fall foul of UEFA's rules and they'd quite like to carry on playing in their competitions. Not sure what the regs are in Greece domestically. No doubt there is a bit of to and fro with respect to the finances.

Its going to be a problem if (when) u guys qualify for Europe. Villa owners own part of a club in Portugal and we both qualified for the Europa Conf Cup this year and the owners had to sell their shares in the club as u can't own part of two clubs competing in the same competition

 

[Villa_Fan]

So where do you stand on the Covid losses as claimed by individual clubs. Seems to me to have been a ‘catch all‘ allowing clubs to adhere to PSR - unless you are unfortunate to have been promoted from the EFL.

I agree with having Covid losses as it did impact the clubs. But each club had to submit their best guesstimate of losses. I think the idea behind it was to claim for losses from match day revenue etc which are fairly easy to calculate. However, I think Everton took the piss with this a little and claimed a crazy amount. They claimed that they could have sold a load of players for X million and because of Covid they were not able to do and the players lost value during the period and Everton claimed about 40m loss for this. I get their point but I think they bumped up the loss amount and the FA were probably not able to prove otherwise and couldn't do much about it. I think they saw a loophole and grabbed it.

 

[Robertson]

Its going to be a problem if (when) u guys qualify for Europe. Villa owners own part of a club in Portugal and we both qualified for the Europa Conf Cup this year and the owners had to sell their shares in the club as u can't own part of two clubs competing in the same competition

Yeah, well we’ll have to not get relegated first before that gets close to being a problem

 

[RedRobbo]

Its going to be a problem if (when) u guys qualify for Europe. Villa owners own part of a club in Portugal and we both qualified for the Europa Conf Cup this year and the owners had to sell their shares in the club as u can't own part of two clubs competing in the same competition

Thought Ineos had been assured that if ( ever ) Man U qualify it won’t be a problem.

 

[Flaggers]

Forest’s annual accounts for 2023, submitted on 31 December 2023, revealed aggregate losses of £86,825,000 per the PSR Calculation. Given that the club’s losses were clearly above the £61 million limit, Forest admitted breach of the PSR in its email accompanying the accounts.

https://littletonchambers.com/articles-webinars/financial-fair-play-and-football-forest-goes-down-but-is-it-out/#:~:text=Forest's%20annal%20accounts%20for%202023,its%20email%20accompanying%20the%20accounts.

As per what Forest were told by the Premier League then yes we were in breach, and ass such the sensible thing is to admit.

If, however, we were wrongly advised by the PL (perhaps the one-off promotion payments are deductible? Perhaps we could have our meagre covid losses accepted) then we might not have been in breach by anything like the amount we were, and the 3 points for the magnitude of the breach might not have been applicable.

 

[RedRobbo]

I agree with having Covid losses as it did impact the clubs. But each club had to submit their best guesstimate of losses. I think the idea behind it was to claim for losses from match day revenue etc which are fairly easy to calculate. However, I think Everton took the piss with this a little and claimed a crazy amount. They claimed that they could have sold a load of players for X million and because of Covid they were not able to do and the players lost value during the period and Everton claimed about 40m loss for this. I get their point but I think they bumped up the loss amount and the FA were probably not able to prove otherwise and couldn't do much about it. I think they saw a loophole and grabbed it.

In which case we would have a very strong case to suggest we have been unfairly treated.

 

[Villa_Fan]

Thought Ineos had been assured that if ( ever ) Man U qualify it won’t be a problem.

If they qualify for the same tournament I believe they will have to sell. It would be crazy if Man U were playing Nice or Lausanne in a game. the conflict of interest is too big and would undermine the competition

 

[Villa_Fan]

In which case we would have a very strong case to suggest we have been unfairly treated.

I would agree in principle. But it could be argued that you should have submitted your Covid losses when you were asked to. I am surprised with Everton as it is a really badly managed club yet they came up with a smart loophole

 

[Flaggers]

I would agree in principle. But it could be argued that you should have submitted your Covid losses when you were asked to. I am surprised with Everton as it is a really badly managed club yet they came up with a smart loophole

It's not a "smart loophole".

It's fraudulent.

 

[Villa_Fan]

It's not a "smart loophole".

It's fraudulent.

If they can put a case forward that they can back up then it is a smart loophole. Either way, it won't make any difference, Forest won't go down

 

[Bing Crosby's Head]

I would agree in principle. But it could be argued that you should have submitted your Covid losses when you were asked to. I am surprised with Everton as it is a really badly managed club yet they came up with a smart loophole

Even though it turned out we couldn't have the level of Covid allowance we wanted, it would have been waved through had we included them as a note in our previous accounts. Completely stupid ruling.

 

[MapperlyMark]

Forest’s annual accounts for 2023, submitted on 31 December 2023, revealed aggregate losses of £86,825,000 per the PSR Calculation. Given that the club’s losses were clearly above the £61 million limit, Forest admitted breach of the PSR in its email accompanying the accounts.

https://littletonchambers.com/articles-webinars/financial-fair-play-and-football-forest-goes-down-but-is-it-out/#:~:text=Forest's%20annal%20accounts%20for%202023,its%20email%20accompanying%20the%20accounts.

One quote caught my eye in this:
“It noted that there were 12 other clubs that had been promoted in circumstances similar to Forest over the past decade”

Yes like QPR and Bournemouth who both broke FFP and escaped with a fine. Coincidentally Richard Masters wasn’t looking for sacrificial lambs to fend off external regulation to protect the cartel back then

 

[apondaway]

One quote caught my eye in this:
“It noted that there were 12 other clubs that had been promoted in circumstances similar to Forest over the past decade”

Yes like QPR and Bournemouth who both broke FFP and escaped with a fine. Coincidentally Richard Masters wasn’t looking for sacrificial lambs to fend off external regulation to protect the cartel back then

To me, if that was the case (both breached and were only given a fine) then that is quite damning evidence against Forest's punishment of a points deduction (provided rules haven't been changed between the instances)

 

[Est.1865]

The delay implies a controversial outcome in my opinion. I’m holding onto that being a good outcome for us.

 

[MapperlyMark]

To me, if that was the case (both breached and were only given a fine) then that is quite damning evidence against Forest's punishment of a points deduction (provided rules haven't been changed between the instances)

Either way it’s shoddy evidence, and borderline lying to imply that there was a precedent of total compliance from 12 other clubs. I’m also wondering if this also includes clubs with parachute payments

 

[RedHelly]

The delay implies a controversial outcome in my opinion. I’m holding onto that being a good outcome for us.

Or that the 2 points, taken off for compliance, have been put back on for publicly slamming the Prem.
And they're going to fine the club which will help a whole lot towards profit and sustainability.

 

[Villa_Fan]

One quote caught my eye in this:
“It noted that there were 12 other clubs that had been promoted in circumstances similar to Forest over the past decade”

Yes like QPR and Bournemouth who both broke FFP and escaped with a fine. Coincidentally Richard Masters wasn’t looking for sacrificial lambs to fend off external regulation to protect the cartel back thenB

Fulham and Forest were also done and got a transfer embargo as a penalty, I think it was 2015 or 2016. Leicester too got done and got a fine if I recall correctly. I am not sure but was it not the EFL that administered those fines as opposed to the PL?

 

[Bing Crosby's Head]

One quote caught my eye in this:
“It noted that there were 12 other clubs that had been promoted in circumstances similar to Forest over the past decade”

Yes like QPR and Bournemouth who both broke FFP and escaped with a fine. Coincidentally Richard Masters wasn’t looking for sacrificial lambs to fend off external regulation to protect the cartel back then

They broke EFL rules in their promotion seasons though and were punished by them. They didn't break Prem PAS rules.

 

[MapperlyMark]

They broke EFL rules in their promotion seasons though and were punished by them. They didn't break Prem PAS rules.

Pretty sure QPR was in the Prem

 

[chaospunx]

The delay implies a controversial outcome in my opinion. I’m holding onto that being a good outcome for us.

My thoughts exactly they wouldn't be able to tell us we have f*** all quick enough im sure

 

[Bing Crosby's Head]

Pretty sure QPR was in the Prem

No, it was the year they got promoted in 2014.