Financial Fair Play (FFP)

[EmmersonForest4]

If a team has incurred losses of 40mil per year for the last 3 years, total 120mi and therefore a 15mil breach.

They should also be held accountable to incure losses under 25mil in the next year to ensure the 105mil limit isn’t exceeded.

It’s not double jeopardy at all. It’s the very premise of a rolling multi year period rule.

This is why I hate the double jeopardy defence, because hat their defnece is “it feels like double jeopardy” not that it is. It’s like stealing from Tesco in the morning and than from asda in the afternoon. You don’t say well I should only get one charge cause I did it in close proximity to each other. Forest appealing is a laughing stock as well to me. Clubs know the rules they make them and sign up to them. It’s not the premier leagues fault the rules are crap. I’d happily talk all day about the rules are not fit for purpose and rubbish. However that dosen’t absolve us of anything. Maybe we may feel less guilt but it’s still rule breaking. I don’t feel morally we’ve cheated. I feel morally we’ve tried to catch up fast after years of under investment but we undoubtedly broke the rules doing so. Take our points deduction like men and make sure we stay in this league. Hopefully get some points as well. All this talk of Brentford as well we’d be higher then them now if it wasn’t for the points.

 

[Statto]

This is why I hate the double jeopardy defence, because hat their defnece is “it feels like double jeopardy” not that it is. It’s like stealing from Tesco in the morning and than from asda in the afternoon. You don’t say well I should only get one charge cause I did it in close proximity to each other. Forest appealing is a laughing stock as well to me. Clubs know the rules they make them and sign up to them. It’s not the premier leagues fault the rules are crap. I’d happily talk all day about the rules are not fit for purpose and rubbish. However that dosen’t absolve us of anything. Maybe we may feel less guilt but it’s still rule breaking. I don’t feel morally we’ve cheated. I feel morally we’ve tried to catch up fast after years of under investment but we undoubtedly broke the rules doing so. Take our points deduction like men and make sure we stay in this league. Hopefully get some points as well. All this talk of Brentford as well we’d be higher then them now if it wasn’t for the points.

I guess more correctly it's like stealing from Tesco at 9am yesterday and then doing the same thing this morning.

 

[Notcher]

This is why I hate the double jeopardy defence, because hat their defnece is “it feels like double jeopardy” not that it is. It’s like stealing from Tesco in the morning and than from asda in the afternoon. You don’t say well I should only get one charge cause I did it in close proximity to each other. Forest appealing is a laughing stock as well to me. Clubs know the rules they make them and sign up to them. It’s not the premier leagues fault the rules are crap. I’d happily talk all day about the rules are not fit for purpose and rubbish. However that dosen’t absolve us of anything. Maybe we may feel less guilt but it’s still rule breaking. I don’t feel morally we’ve cheated. I feel morally we’ve tried to catch up fast after years of under investment but we undoubtedly broke the rules doing so. Take our points deduction like men and make sure we stay in this league. Hopefully get some points as well. All this talk of Brentford as well we’d be higher then them now if it wasn’t for the points.

I thinks you've totally missed the point of appealing or do you think it's fair that other teams have been treated differently to Forest in respect of their breaches and that that different clubs have been allowed to write off deductions where we haven't?

You say it's not the PL fault? It quite literally is. They've decided how to apply the rules and when. As for "take our deduction like men" what does that even mean? Total nonsense.

 

[Collymore!]

…Forest appealing is a laughing stock as well to me. Clubs know the rules they make them and sign up to them.

Disagree a little here, the points deductions have been shoehorned in recently with no outlined punishment. We knew the rules, I.e. a potential fine and embargo, but we didn’t know about points deductions as they didn’t exist before in the Prem. Clubs before us did the same and got away with a light fine.

It’s not the premier leagues fault the rules are crap.

Kinda is their fault. No guidelines, panic with the independent regulator. That’s why they’ll get taken to court after it all.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

I thinks you've totally missed the point of appealing or do you think it's fair that other teams have been treated differently to Forest in respect of their breaches and that that different clubs have been allowed to write off deductions where we haven't?

You say it's not the PL fault? It quite literally is. They've decided how to apply the rules and when. As for "take our deduction like men" what does that even mean? Total nonsense.

What other teams have been treated differently? Taking our deduction like men isn’t a nonsense. We put ourselves in harms way knowingly. It’s only incompetence on our part and we have to take it on the chin.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

Disagree a little here, the points deductions have been shoehorned in recently with no outlined punishment. We knew the rules, I.e. a potential fine and embargo, but we didn’t know about points deductions as they didn’t exist before in the Prem. Clubs before us did the same and got away with a light fine.



Kinda is their fault. No guidelines, panic with the independent regulator. That’s why they’ll get taken to court after it all.

which teams have been found guilty of breaching PSR and been treated differently? Also yes tye premier league is a bit shite with their implementation of punishment because it’s literally never happened before breaching PSR. Everton got 6 points after an appeal. That makes our appeal laughable to me. It’s a pure childish tantrum from EM for me. If we end up with more points I hope it serves a lesson to his chaotic unorganised side.

 

[Collymore!]

Lots of breaches which have led to fines. QPR, Leicester, Man U off the top of my head.

 

[Robertson]

Lots of breaches which have led to fines. QPR, Leicester, Man U off the top of my head.

Bournemouth

 

[Notcher]

What other teams have been treated differently? Taking our deduction like men isn’t a nonsense. We put ourselves in harms way knowingly. It’s only incompetence on our part and we have to take it on the chin.

Every other team that's breached previously, some got fines. Now the Fulham and Bournemouth accounts showing different treatment. Again your reply shows you've totally missed the point of appeal

 

[EmmersonForest4]

Every other team that's breached previously, some got fines. Now the Fulham and Bournemouth accounts showing different treatment. Again your reply shows you've totally missed the point of appeal

I don’t know if any other side that’s broke PSR besides us and Everton. City have been charged and we are awaiting the hearing and chelsea are yet to be charged. Leicester have also been charged. Anything pre Everton as a different rule set that the member clubs of the EPL vote for themselves. I understand the point of an appeal but if it has the threat of extended points and we have already been given mitigation of 2 points that Everton did not than to me it’s frivolous and chucking the toys out of the pram.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

Lots of breaches which have led to fines. QPR, Leicester, Man U off the top of my head.

I believe Leicester and QPR were charged with the EFLs rules and not the EPL. Unless I am mistaken also when have United broken PSR?

 

[Cloughie1975]

I don’t know if any other side that’s broke PSR besides us and Everton. City have been charged and we are awaiting the hearing and chelsea are yet to be charged. Leicester have also been charged. Anything pre Everton as a different rule set that the member clubs of the EPL vote for themselves. I understand the point of an appeal but if it has the threat of extended points and we have already been given mitigation of 2 points that Everton did not than to me it’s frivolous and chucking the toys out of the pram.

To be fair,I agreed with you until recently.
However,I have now changed my view-if it’s come to light that other clubs have been treated differently then Forest are right to appeal.

 

[Robertson]

I believe Leicester and QPR were charged with the EFLs rules and not the EPL. Unless I am mistaken also when have United broken PSR?

Yet the PL saw fit to override the EFLs rules in assessing our Covid losses and promotion bonuses. We passed the EFL FFP regs in the three years to 2022. Yes we would still have breached by around £5m in 2023, but that extra £30m loss screws us for this year as well. There is also the fact that Fulham and Bournemouth have made losses of a similar magnitude but been allowed to write a chunk of them off against PSR because…..??? We don’t know.

 

[Collymore!]

I believe Leicester and QPR were charged with the EFLs rules and not the EPL. Unless I am mistaken also when have United broken PSR?

To avoid a massive back-and-forth on this. For arbitration or litigation purposes, do you think it's relevant that in Everton's written report, Sheffield Wednesday's (a member of the EFL) points deduction was referenced?

 

[EmmersonForest4]

To avoid a massive back-and-forth on this. For arbitration or litigation purposes, do you think it's relevant that in Everton's written report, Sheffield Wednesday's (a member of the EFL) points deduction was referenced?

I don’t know the rules around referencing separate rules when punishing teams. Maybe someone in law on here can shed some light on that? I know from my readings though it’s factually incorrect to say that other sides have broken the exact rule that we have and got lesser punishments. I know it sucks but Leicester and QPR did not break the premier leagues PSR. It’s all a bit woe is me at the moment I feel. I’d rather we just focus on the football now.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

Yet the PL saw fit to override the EFLs rules in assessing our Covid losses and promotion bonuses. We passed the EFL FFP regs in the three years to 2022. Yes we would still have breached by around £5m in 2023, but that extra £30m loss screws us for this year as well. There is also the fact that Fulham and Bournemouth have made losses of a similar magnitude but been allowed to write a chunk of them off against PSR because…..??? We don’t know.

I don’t know that particulars but if Bournemouth and Fulham were allowed to write off the exact same debts that we weren’t than De Marco should have made that point and surely that would have been looked at?!?!

 

[Robertson]

I don’t know that particulars but if Bournemouth and Fulham were allowed to write off the exact same debts that we weren’t than De Marco should have made that point and surely that would have been looked at?!?!

Well nor do I really. More knowledge people than me have raised questions about how it all adds up though. Perhaps these points will be raised after we’ve gone through the appeal process if there’s anything to them.

 

[Red Ray's Redlist]

I don’t know that particulars but if Bournemouth and Fulham were allowed to write off the exact same debts that we weren’t than De Marco should have made that point and surely that would have been looked at?!?!

Until their accounts were published we wouldn’t have known this, and from what I understand it's not clear that they have. The problem is the EPL aren't policing the way PSR is accounted for so it is possible some clubs may be hiding losses under different reporting lines.

It's quite possible the biggest mistake we made was asking if it was ok to exclude the promotion bonuses rather than just doing it anyway. And the same with Covid losses. We should have just restated the loss based upon EPL rules within the accounts rather than asking. That way the EPL would have been forced to explicitly state we were to be treated differently.

 

[Flaggers]

I don’t know that particulars but if Bournemouth and Fulham were allowed to write off the exact same debts that we weren’t than De Marco should have made that point and surely that would have been looked at?!?!

2 lots of fees if there's an appeal

 

[YouReds43]

Everton fans seem to think they will get 2pts deducted, they did think we would get 8-12pts so they are probably wrong If the ruling is now 3pts for a breach, 3pts for level of breach, Points off for Early Plea and Cooperation, Points added back on for aggravating factors I think they will have 1 or 2, so 6pts deducted, if double jeopardy doesn’t stick which I don’t think it does as their PSR loss for 21/22 was 10m.

 

[Erik]

I can see Everton getting 6 points, reduced to 4 on appeal and us getting 2 back.

Which basically gives us a 6 point swing on Everton, 2 points on everyone else and ultimately 2 points breathing space. Whether we use that or not is then up to us.

 

[Statto]

I can see Everton getting 6 points, reduced to 4 on appeal and us getting 2 back.

Which basically gives us a 6 point swing on Everton, 2 points on everyone else and ultimately 2 points breathing space. Whether we use that or not is then up to us.

Tbf if we don't get 1 more point than Luton over the remainder of the season we don't deserve to stay up whatever happens with deductions

 

[Erik]

Tbf if we don't get 1 more point than Luton over the remainder of the season we don't deserve to stay up whatever happens with deductions

Watch this space.......

 

[Notcher]

I can see Everton getting 6 points, reduced to 4 on appeal and us getting 2 back.

Which basically gives us a 6 point swing on Everton, 2 points on everyone else and ultimately 2 points breathing space. Whether we use that or not is then up to us.

I'm with you on the 6 points Eric, I don't see how it can be any less considering it's a significant second breach. I've got no idea about the appeals although what I can see happening is that the Everton appeal is one that decides the final relegation spot and it occuring after the season has ended.

 

[Col Steve Austin]

Tbf if we don't get 1 more point than Luton over the remainder of the season we don't deserve to stay up whatever happens with deductions

It's not as simple as that with so few games remaining though, e.g. the average position of Forest's home opposition in the final 3 home games is 7.6 (3, 9 & 11) whereas Luton's is 14.6. (16, 15 & 13).