Brits, Fannies and Forest

[account deleted]

Is this thread the Nottinghamshire version of "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves"?

 

[Strummer]

Is this thread the Nottinghamshire version of "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves"?

Well, it’s good to share.

 

[carlosmerino]

You can sign good British players or shit British players just like you can sign good or shit players from the continent. For Antonio and Britt I'd give you Tesche and Fryatt, for Lam and Luca I'll give you Aaron Davies and Nicky Eaden. Good players are generally good players, our problem is we haven't signed the right ones and not given any manager time to do anything with them.

 

[congo_red_49]

Is this thread the Nottinghamshire version of "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves"?

No. That already has a name. 'Mansfield'.

 

[Rockabilly]

I love the title of this thread. :1st:

Edit: sorry I posted this before a saw Ravi's post.

 

[ShakeyRed]

No I haven't you just can't think of any imports which come close to making the club anywhere near that profit.

Go for it, lets see you're top 6 import sales and how much they've netted us over the years. 42m pure profit is the target.

Doesn't matter whether they are or not, it's a good investment. We're a business & that has to be part of the consideration. You are also totally ignoring that we got these players for next to nothing.

Let's go through it(all figures are rounded roughly to save time):

Antonio - Investment 2m - sold for 7m - Profit 5m
Burke - Inv £0 - Sold 13m - profit - 13m
Britt - Inv £5m - Sold 15m - profit 10m
Lascelles & Darlow - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit £7m
Brereton - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit 7m

Christ, if this year we sold we'd be looking at an additional £18-20m profit for Lolley & Benny. Each year our best & most profitable players are still British, despite us swampting the squad with imported crap.

Now lets look at what the imports have made us. ANY of these could have made us a significant profit, but they didn't coz they were a total waste of time, effort & money:

Soudani
Ansarifard
Dejagah
Tachtsidis
Bouchalakis
Kapino
Lam
Fuentes
Perquis
Stojković
Licá
Teixeira
Dumitru
Kasami
Vellios

etc. etc.

there's not threpance to rub between them lot. Certainly nowhere near 42m.

The benefits in buying British is glaringly obvious.

Until this thread I had an idea, but now I've broken it down into actual figures I've never been more convinced that good British investment is the healthiest way to secure the club's future.

A little misleading to suggest that Burke, Lascelles, Darlow & Brereton cost zero investment.

What about all the money spent on training facilities, the coaches, the education, the wages, the scouting and all the money wasted on the talent that doesn't make the grade.

For every Burke there are probably 40 Anel Ahmedhodzics

 

[Timothy Pope]

Last night dispelled f*** all for me, it was a friendly.

On the subject of Bouch & Ansarifard, both too slow & both get knock over in a slight breeze. Championship requires the desire to run through challenges at least.

Agree that sometimes it’s hard to put too much stock in friendly results as there are different levels of fitness and sharpness as well as the tinkering that tends to go on with multiple substitutions. But many folk were scornful of Olympiakos and that their players weren’t good enough to get in the Forest team. Last nights friendly showed the quality gap between the 2 sides.

They showed us the quality and type of game we should be aspiring to play


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[Strummer]

A little misleading to suggest that Burke, Lascelles, Darlow & Brereton cost zero investment.

What about all the money spent on training facilities, the coaches, the education, the wages, the scouting and all the money wasted on the talent that doesn't make the grade.

For every Burke there are probably 40 Anel Ahmedhodzics

From Memory, the Academy costs around £1.2m a season all-in.

So you can offset that cost against the revenue from selling an Academy graduate (or two).

 

[Notcher]

Doesn't matter whether they are or not, it's a good investment. We're a business & that has to be part of the consideration. You are also totally ignoring that we got these players for next to nothing.

Let's go through it(all figures are rounded roughly to save time):

Antonio - Investment 2m - sold for 7m - Profit 5m
Burke - Inv £0 - Sold 13m - profit - 13m
Britt - Inv £5m - Sold 15m - profit 10m
Lascelles & Darlow - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit £7m
Brereton - Inv £0 - sold 7m - profit 7m

Christ, if this year we sold we'd be looking at an additional £18-20m profit for Lolley & Benny. Each year our best & most profitable players are still British, despite us swampting the squad with imported crap.

Now lets look at what the imports have made us. ANY of these could have made us a significant profit, but they didn't coz they were a total waste of time, effort & money:

Soudani
Ansarifard
Dejagah
Tachtsidis
Bouchalakis
Kapino
Lam
Fuentes
Perquis
Stojković
Licá
Teixeira
Dumitru
Kasami
Vellios

etc. etc.

there's not threpance to rub between them lot. Certainly nowhere near 42m.

The benefits in buying British is glaringly obvious.

Until this thread I had an idea, but now I've broken it down into actual figures I've never been more convinced that good British investment is the healthiest way to secure the club's future.

Some fair points Alf. From your snapshot analysis what I would glean from that is that it's actually better to nurture British and sell British.

The examples for actually buying British and having major resale value are still small. Most of those then come from lower leagues.

There are still just as many British as foreign players we've purchased that have been flops and have cost us and then had very little resale value.

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[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

A little misleading to suggest that Burke, Lascelles, Darlow & Brereton cost zero investment.

What about all the money spent on training facilities, the coaches, the education, the wages, the scouting and all the money wasted on the talent that doesn't make the grade.

For every Burke there are probably 40 Anel Ahmedhodzics

£0 transfer investment. The comparison was transfer fees spent & then recieved.

All the other elements is an entirely different debate which can't be measured. E.g. how many folk have had Antonio or Britt on their shirt compared to Lica or Soudani? etc.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

From Memory, the Academy costs around £1.2m a season all-in.

So you can offset that cost against the revenue from selling an Academy graduate (or two).

Thanks for adding that in mate

So just for the comparison purposes let's say the players I listed were academy players for 5 years each. I'll be generous, go top heavy and round up to saying it's cost us 10m to bring them through. 12m if anyone wants to add hot dogs & crap coffee into the mix.

So anyone wanting to point out how imports profit us only have to find 30m worth of profit now.

 

[Notcher]

As for investing in British players I'd probably get used to the fact it isn't going to happen as much while teams over-inflate the domestic market. There's a huge divide between what teams can spend on these players because of FFP and what teams value British players at.

This is a really interesting point. This overinflation means that British clubs are pricing themselves out of their own market now that FFP is here.

What does this mean for academies from the Championship down? I suspect that any academy from the smaller Championship clubs down are going to really struggle to maintain them as a cost effective method.

I can't remember the market stagnating as much as it has this year in the Championship along with deals between clubs in this division appearing none existent.

This all boils down to where will academies be able to sell their best prospects to? The premiership will only take buy so many and the inflation means that teams below that will find it increasingly difficult to with FFP.

I fear if this continues for another couple of years we will see a lot of academies closing their doors.



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[ShakeyRed]

£0 transfer investment. The comparison was transfer fees spent & then recieved.

All the other elements is an entirely different debate which can't be measured. E.g. how many folk have had Antonio or Britt on their shirt compared to Lica or Soudani? etc.

No Alf, to be clear, you said it was £42m pure profit, which is misleading because the investment made in getting the academy talant in that position to sell them takes many years of continuous investment

 

[ShakeyRed]

Thanks for adding that in mate

So just for the comparison purposes let's say the players I listed were academy players for 5 years each. I'll be generous, go top heavy and round up to saying it's cost us 10m to bring them through. 12m if anyone wants to add hot dogs & crap coffee into the mix.

So anyone wanting to point out how imports profit us only have to find 30m worth of profit now.

Has the academy only been running for five years?

And did it close once we sold Burke?

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

No Alf, to be clear, you said it was £42m pure profit, which is misleading because the investment made in getting the academy talant in that position to sell them takes many years of continuous investment

Which still amounts to threpance compared to what signing imports, their agent fees & their wages cost us.

Has the academy only been running for five years?

And did it close once we sold Burke?

What next, we gonna factor into the equation their baby feed?

12m was being generous. If up're being picky about it I'll not be generous and say 1.2m for every year of the academy since Fawaz took over, when various debts were written off by the Doughty family, and essentially we had a fresh starting point.

So that's 7 years at 1.2m. 8.4m for all those players & everything attached (and AGAIN I'm being generous by not looking at players we've sold for lesser fees like Grant)

So in that case find me 33.6m worth of import profit

there is absolutely no spin you can put on this to make up the vast amounts of profit we have made from British based players.

 

[carlosmerino]

But Alf, what about Lars Veldwijk?

 

[Heffing Psycho!]

This is a really interesting point. This overinflation means that British clubs are pricing themselves out of their own market now that FFP is here.

What does this mean for academies from the Championship down? I suspect that any academy from the smaller Championship clubs down are going to really struggle to maintain them as a cost effective method.

I can't remember the market stagnating as much as it has this year in the Championship along with deals between clubs in this division appearing none existent.

This all boils down to where will academies be able to sell their best prospects to? The premiership will only take buy so many and the inflation means that teams below that will find it increasingly difficult to with FFP.

I fear if this continues for another couple of years we will see a lot of academies closing their doors.



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I think we're seeing the effect of stupid money in the Premier League already drip down into our league, they aren't buying from each others academies as much now because it costs obscene amounts, instead they're looking at young Championship talent, last season you saw Leicester pick up Maddison and Bournemouth pick up Brookes after their debut seasons in the Champ. This season so far we've seen Kelly and Stacey go to Bournemouth, James Justin go to Leicester, Dan James to Man Utd, Callum Robinson to Sheff Utd, Che Adams to Southampton, Jack Clarke to Spurs. All British, all going for a premium, it'll only push prices between Championship teams higher.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

But Alf, what about Lars Veldwijk?

Shit foriegner.

But if you cut through the myths and recall what I actually said about him you'll understand that's irrelevant.

Because my complaint was that Dougie, in a year where he was trying to get us out of embargo, was playing Akpom instead of Lars at the end of a season with nothing to play for.

The problem was spending dosh on loans who were never gonna benefit us, rather than at least trying players we already had on the books.

If we still had Ansarifard here I'd rather us have tried him season end than some Prem loan who wasn't gonna return season after.

 

[ShakeyRed]

Which still amounts to threpance compared to what signing imports, their agent fees & their wages cost us.



What next, we gonna factor into the equation their baby feed?

12m was being generous. If up're being picky about it I'll not be generous and say 1.2m for every year of the academy since Fawaz took over, when various debts were written off by the Doughty family, and essentially we had a fresh starting point.

So that's 7 years at 1.2m. 8.4m for all those players & everything attached (and AGAIN I'm being generous by not looking at players we've sold for lesser fees like Grant)

So in that case find me 33.6m worth of import profit

there is absolutely no spin you can put on this to make up the vast amounts of profit we have made from British based players.

So you accept that your £42m PURE profit argument was greatly exaggerated?

Are you sure your other figures are correct?

Asking for a friend

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

So you accept that your £42m PURE profit argument was greatly exaggerated?

Are you sure your other figures are correct?

Asking for a friend

No, it's just one POV. You offered another, so I adjusted mine in light of that and trying to see all sides of the debate.

I'm sure that, whichever angle you question it from and whichever caveats you add, not one Forest fan will be able to find the same amount of profit from sales of imported players as we've made from British based ones.

 

[Googler]

Don’t forget Lars the guy who should have been fined for mis representing himself as being a footballer

 

[Cortez the Killer]

Thread title made me chuckle

At first I thought it referred to Assombalonga and Cummings and their careers at the club.

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[ShakeyRed]

No, it's just one POV. You offered another, so I adjusted mine in light of that and trying to see all sides of the debate.

I'm sure that, whichever angle you question it from and whichever caveats you add, not one Forest fan will be able to find the same amount of profit from sales of imported players as we've made from British based ones.

I don't doubt you on that at all.

I was just pointing out that home grown talent from the academy still comeas at some considerable cost and can't be accounted as "free"

 

[Captain Sinister]

A question has just come to mind: where would Olympiacos finish in the Championship if they were to be in it?
Would they walk it and go up as Champions, runners-up or play-off final winners?
Or would their players be put back into their shells?
I don't think getting promotion would be a bolt on certainty, but I reckon they would be top 6 or thereabouts.

 

[Notcher]

A question has just come to mind: where would Olympiacos finish in the Championship if they were to be in it?
Would they walk it and go up as Champions, runners-up or play-off final winners?
Or would their players be put back into their shells?
I don't think getting promotion would be a bolt on certainty, but I reckon they would be top 6 or thereabouts.

They kind of reminded me of Wolves although arguably with even more quality. No doubt they would go up automatically for me.

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