Brits, Fannies and Forest

[Timothy Pope]

Last night dispelled the myth that Olympiakos are a rubbish team and their players aren’t good enough for Nottingham Forest Football Club.

So why is it that players like Bouchalakis and Ansarifard can come to Forest and be unsuccessful?


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[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Because the Championship is an entirely different form of competition, and it's a never been about X is better than Y player, or X manager is better than Y manager for that matter. It's about right fit for the club & this league.

 

[Captain Sinister]

I have tried to understand the Karim situation, but still can't.
He came to us when we needed a decent alternative striking option but was given little opportunity to demonstrate his abilities by more than 1 manager.
How Forest could afford to waste the opportunity presented by Karim joining us is still a complete mystery to me.
Then again, I am not on the inside and have no knowledge as to how Karim presented himself to the managers and the coaching staff, or the other players.
Maybe he just didn't try and fit in.
Maybe he saw forest as a mere stop-gap while he sorted out a new opportunity in the Middle East.
I don't suppose we shall ever know what went on behind the scenes.
It is just a sad waste of talent, either by the Club, or by the player himself.
As for Bouchalakis, he really didn't adapt to the Championship and despite being a decent player he couldn't cut it in our league.
The others who have been brought in and quickly let go - Kasami, Vellios and others - well, they gave the impression of being journeymen and we had enough and some to spare.
Now, if we had got Podence last season, rather than Dias, or Goncalves, we might have seen a real talent who would have thrived wherever he was plying his trade.
Also, after watching Oly last night, can you imagine how well Carvalho would slot into their set up?
I hope Joao stays at forest, and forest come up to his standard, but I reckon it would be in his own best interest to go to the Greeks and play with others who are already on or even above his level.

 

[Account Deleted]

Because the Championship is an entirely different form of competition, and it's a never been about X is better than Y player, or X manager is better than Y manager for that matter. It's about right fit for the club & this league.

Sorry Alf, but I don't buy that.

It's got nothing to do with fit, far more to do with being given an opportunity.

We were never going to see the best of Ansarifard, Bouchalakis, Vellios or any of the other imports if they weren't given some consistent game time and allowed time to adapt both to the game over here before being judged by far too many of our fanbase as not being good enough when they've hardly been given any competitive game time.

 

[MASE]

Last night dispelled f*** all for me, it was a friendly.

On the subject of Bouch & Ansarifard, both too slow & both get knock over in a slight breeze. Championship requires the desire to run through challenges at least.

 

[Heffing Psycho!]

Last night dispelled the myth that Olympiakos are a rubbish team and their players aren’t good enough for Nottingham Forest Football Club.

So why is it that players like Bouchalakis and Ansarifard can come to Forest and be unsuccessful?


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Not just Oly players either. There seems to be a perception that if they're foreign they'll need a period to adapt if they're ever going to make it and it isn't always the case. There are stand out players who come from other countries and take to the Championship with ease now days (see Timo Pukki and half of Norwich's squad last season, Wolves the season before that).

There is still some rough and tumble in the Championship and it is a slog at 46 games but it's not a league for brutes and scrappers only, it's a league full of talented footballers and foreign players have definitely added to that in the past few seasons. While transfer fees remain ridiculous to buy domestic I would hope we keep looking abroad to find affordable talent.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Sorry Alf, but I don't buy that.

It's got nothing to do with fit, far more to do with being given an opportunity.

We were never going to see the best of Ansarifard, Bouchalakis, Vellios or any of the other imports if they weren't given some consistent game time and allowed time to adapt both to the game over here before being judged by far too many of our fanbase as not being good enough when they've hardly been given any competitive game time.

That may be true, but those types of players also need more game time to get to grips with the league than folk who already know it & are evolved to it IMO.

And as Mase says, Bouch & Ansarifard are two exapmples of players both too slow & both get knock over in a slight breeze. Championship requires the desire to run through challenges at least. It's a wrong fit. It's like putting an Eskimo in Mexico & expecting him to thrive.

It's really no coincidence that our best sides in recent years have a core of players well accustomed to British football. A handful of imports fit that bracket, but far more don't.

 

[GreeksBearingGifts]

Last night dispelled f*** all for me, it was a friendly.

On the subject of Bouch & Ansarifard, both too slow & both get knock over in a slight breeze. Championship requires the desire to run through challenges at least.

I am between the two views. I think some of you overvalue the importance of challenges and running through opponents with the ball. As the old football saying goes, the ball travels faster than legs. Quick thinking, quick decision making and solid technical skills are essential in modern football. You can run through a defence with good passing game and organised movement without the ball, not just challenges and dribbles.

That being said, the Championship requires stamina and perseverance over a season which is beyond what players in many leagues are used to. Bouchalakis is a good player but his muscular system simply couldn't handle high-intensity games twice a week

 

[Viktor]

Whenever this debate comes up (three times a week, same 500 posts from the same 17 posters) I think of Majewski. Took no time to acclimatise, straight into the team and brilliant.

He was a bit of a hard nut though. Same with Milosevic really. So maybe we look to the cold places in Europe.

 

[Viktor]

Yes, I think of Radi a lot.

 

[Strummer]

Yes, I think of Radi a lot.

Don’t we all?

 

[Viktor]

Sometimes I fantasize about ya too...

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Piss head & "hard nut".

As British as they come

 

[Strummer]

*sigh* we will always have West Bromwich Albion.

 

[Viktor]

Piss head & "hard nut".

As British as they come

I dunno, a hard nut from somewhere like Sweden or anywhere else cold is much scarier then a British one.

I wouldn't want to take on Ivan Drago, but I'd back myself against a British hard nut. I'd just distract with a complicated word.

Like "caterpillar"

 

[Ravi]

Last night dispelled f*** all for me, it was a friendly.

On the subject of Bouch & Ansarifard, both too slow & both get knock over in a slight breeze. Championship requires the desire to run through challenges at least.

I vividly remember the way Dias, Gonçalves and Carvalho ripped Premier League Bournemouth to shreds in a 3-0 pre season friendly win last season. I also remember us losing 5-0 to Bayern Munich in the middle of our record unbeaten run, in a friendly.

It's hard to come to any firm conclusions based on a friendly.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I dunno, a hard nut from somewhere like Sweden or anywhere else cold is much scarier then a British one.

I wouldn't want to take on Ivan Drago, but I'd back myself against a British hard nut. I'd just distract with a complicated word.

Like "caterpillar"

Agreed. Fit for the league mate. Not sun-soaked fannies who fall over at the first wet fart & expect evrything to move at siesta pace.

Plus Radi was being managed by the best too

 

[Ravi]

Good thread title btw.

 

[Rzar]

Sorry Alf, but I don't buy that.

It's got nothing to do with fit, far more to do with being given an opportunity.

We were never going to see the best of Ansarifard, Bouchalakis, Vellios or any of the other imports if they weren't given some consistent game time and allowed time to adapt both to the game over here before being judged by far too many of our fanbase as not being good enough when they've hardly been given any competitive game time.

There were plenty saying Ansarifard wasn't good enough until they actually saw him play.

If they are good enough they will be good enough for the English game, where they are from makes no difference.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Thinking about it, best way I can put it is that you wouldn't expect Carva to play centre half. His natural build & genetic make-up makes him a poor fit there.

No matter how good someone is in another league, if they're make-up isn't suited to the rougher, more competitive, phsyically demanding nature of the Championship then it's gonna be an uphill battle to get them to work well over here. Which no one ever gets time to work on with everything changing round every 6 months at this club.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Bouch looked fine last night because he had a composed Semedo behind him, a ball carrier in Podence in front and the Guerrero up top who could hold it up. Which mean Bouch didn't have to worry too much about through balls behind him, could pass it short to Podence to carry or could play a more direct ball.

Bouch came here when Warbo was rebuilding the side, and we were nowhere near as strong or as fluid as we needed to be to be competitive.

This isn't just a foreign thing either. We've done it with our own players. Worrall continues to get hammered for being a liability based on half a season under Warburton whereby the team was setup to attack, attack, attack, despite probably being the best of the four defenders who collectively struggled as a unit because of approach to games. Same for Smith, despite him basically keeping us up the year before. I saw someone mentioned Robinson wasn't good enough based on last nights showing because we're trying to play a more patient, controlling game and he's a bit more destructive.

It's almost like players and teams take time to fully gel to new leagues or new tactical setups or other teammates.

 

[Heffing Psycho!]

Thinking about it, best way I can put it is that you wouldn't expect Carva to play centre half. His natural build & genetic make-up makes him a poor fit there.

No matter how good someone is in another league, if they're make-up isn't suited to the rougher, more competitive, phsyically demanding nature of the Championship then it's gonna be an uphill battle to get them to work well over here. Which no one ever gets time to work on with everything changing round every 6 months at this club.

Can you explain why players like Buendia for Norwich thrived then? 5'7 never played out of the sunshine until he came to Norwich last season where he played 38 scored 8 (most in a season in his career) and assisted 12 (2nd in the league)? Or what about Saïd Benrahma for Brentford 5'8, never played outside of France mainly in the lower leagues, played his first season in the Championship last year and scored 10 and led the league for assists with 15. Or why players like Cavaleiro and Jota came in and smashed it their first season? Or why 5'6 Anthony Knockaert came over having never played outside of the French second division and in his first Championship season played 42 games, scored 8 and got 6 assists while winning Young Player of the Year and Goal of the Season at Leicester.

I'm not trying to be a dick just giving examples, your point completely ignores players like those ones I mentioned above and there are more examples too, so it can't just be a genetic thing or a only plays in the sun thing or anything like that, there are too many exceptions for those to be rules.

 

[Barry]

Because the Championship is an entirely different form of competition, and it's a never been about X is better than Y player, or X manager is better than Y manager for that matter. It's about right fit for the club & this league.

Home run answer there... it's not the players being crap it's about them fitting into the league.

That side we played last night looked good in their own country with a bit of sun... but you put the f***ers against Warnock on a Tuesday night in Feb and most of em will shit it.

They were even rolling around like fannies last night, in a f***ing friendly..... have some f***ing pride man.

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[Viktor]

Home run answer there... it's not the players being crap it's about them fitting into the league.

That side we played last night looked good in their own country with a bit of sun... but you put the f***ers against Warnock on a Tuesday night in Feb and most of em will shit it.

They were even rolling around like fannies last night, in a f***ing friendly..... have some f***ing pride man.

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This made me laugh last night, I think I even posted about it. I was only half watching because I was getting the Platinum Trophy on Rocket League on the PS4, but everytime I watched my attention ended with a Olympiakos player on the floor and confused Forest player standing next to them..

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Can you explain why players like Buendia for Norwich thrived then? 5'7 never played out of the sunshine until he came to Norwich last season where he played 38 scored 8 (most in a season in his career) and assisted 12 (2nd in the league)? Or what about Saïd Benrahma for Brentford 5'8, never played outside of France mainly in the lower leagues, played his first season in the Championship last year and scored 10 and led the league for assists with 15. Or why players like Cavaleiro and Jota came in and smashed it their first season? Or why 5'6 Anthony Knockaert came over having never played outside of the French second division and in his first Championship season played 42 games, scored 8 and got 6 assists while winning Young Player of the Year and Goal of the Season at Leicester.

I'm not trying to be a dick just giving examples, your point completely ignores players like those ones I mentioned above and there are more examples too, so it can't just be a genetic thing or a only plays in the sun thing or anything like that, there are too many exceptions for those to be rules.

Coz there's other factors involved at other clubs which aren't present at this club.

E.g. a surrounding core of players who know the league and can guide them, consistansy in the off field playing staff, consistansy of styles, a surrounding group of players who make settling less relevant (e.g. Watford) etc.

We're a mess of a club who jumps from one thing to the next every 6 months. Until that's sorted the majority of imported players won't have the foundation to settle and adapt quickly enough to make a significant difference before they're off again. Odd ones will, but they'll be the exceptions, and likely cost a pretty penny ala Carva.

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