Weighting of managers, team and chairman in results

[IJPS]

Bad day at the office, and lots of calls for new management, but will that change very much?

we've seen big names at the club, all underperforming. I believe that the players are what win games.

Chairman 5% impact on team performance over a season.
Manager 25%.
Team 70%

For me this puts into perspective who/where my frustration should be. But thats just my opinion.
Whats yours?

 

[Rzar]

Managers, however have a large influence on fans. Fans then have an influence on the players.

No doubt injuries are having an effect though.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

We are missing some huge players Hobbs-Wilon-Lichaj at the back and Lansbury-Reid-Vaughan in midfield put that with our piss poor attack then you will have huge problems someone was saying our second string eleven should not be doing so badly but we have some very average players and the biggest scandal is how much we pay them. Yeah Davies needs to go really but this squad will not get automatic promtion it needs at least 5 players and 6 or 7 shipping out.

 

[tropix]

The manager makes or breaks the team. Look at Moyes

 

[Cortez the Killer]

The manager makes or breaks the team. Look at Moyes

True.

 

[The Red Mill]

What we need is a manager with no baggage.

 

[Cortez the Killer]

The logic in the weighting is difficult to argue with.
But playing Halford up front when Cox was injured, despite us having a range of unused strikers - failing to play Abdoun when for the previous two games he was MotM - continuing to play a massively ineffective Cox up front all alone - these are a few of the indicators that tell me the manager needs to take responsibility.

 

[Chivalry Augustus]

I think a manager's importance is under-stated, especially at times like these when the side is under pressure. But I don't think it's the qualities that are necessarily valued (from the outside looking in) that are most important; tactical nous, recruitment, etc. Managers tend to imprint their personality on a side, their footballing personality. I think you see a lot of evidence of this at Forest, where Davies's sides constantly play with the underdog's spirit; niggly, trying to fight from a corner even when they're winning, pushing for time, acting as if the world and the game is against them. And, like today, giving up rather than going for one last shot as soon as they feel the game is up.

Managers can be made to look good or bad by the structure. But they can also put themselves under pressure by their actions off the pitch. Davies has made a rod for his own back by making enemies with everybody he has ever come into contact with. If he was an all-round nice bloke who was simply struggling under the weight of an injury crisis, he would command a lot more love and respect from the Forest faithful than he is currently doing. And some people would be looking at the infrastructure at the club and asking whether it is really maximising our ability to be successful. BUT, and this is the crucial factor when considering Davies, and a tenure which is drawing ever more inevitably to its close, what we are seeing here under Davies is history repeating itself.

In my opinion, Davies has already left the club in his mind - his actions, his me-against-the-world attitude, his treatment of the fans and media suggest that he is readying himself for the bullet - it is just a matter of when. You'll observe this phenomena in real-life where people leave a relationship as coldly as if it was nothing, they went through the motions in their head weeks and months before. How would he know this? Well, he's made an enemy out of almost everybody above him in football. This is just Billy Davies, A History in Microcosm.

 

[Cortez the Killer]

I think a manager's importance is under-stated, especially at times like these when the side is under pressure. But I don't think it's the qualities that are necessarily valued (from the outside looking in) that are most important; tactical nous, recruitment, etc. Managers tend to imprint their personality on a side, their footballing personality. I think you see a lot of evidence of this at Forest, where Davies's sides constantly play with the underdog's spirit; niggly, trying to fight from a corner even when they're winning, pushing for time, acting as if the world and the game is against them. And, like today, giving up rather than going for one last shot as soon as they feel the game is up.

Managers can be made to look good or bad by the structure. But they can also put themselves under pressure by their actions off the pitch. Davies has made a rod for his own back by making enemies with everybody he has ever come into contact with. If he was an all-round nice bloke who was simply struggling under the weight of an injury crisis, he would command a lot more love and respect from the Forest faithful as he is currently doing. And some people would be looking at the infrastructure at the club and asking whether it is really maximising our ability to be successful. BUT, and this is the crucial factor when considering Davies, and a tenure which is drawing ever more inevitably to its close, what we are seeing here under Davies is history repeating itself.

In my opinion, Davies has already left the club in his mind - his actions, his me-against-the-world attitude, his treatment of the fans and media suggest that he is readying himself for the bullet - it is just a matter of when. You'll observe this phenomena in real-life where people leave a relationship as coldly as if it was nothing, they went through the motions in their head weeks and months before. How would he know this? Well, he's made an enemy out of almost everybody above him in football. This is just Billy Davies, A History in Microcosm.

Most sensible post of 2014

 

[CaptainBlack]

A team is a collection of various individuals from a squad and is hand picked by the manager over the course of a season. You can't assign responsibility to the 'team' or individual players for what happens over a season. The responsibility for the teams performance lies between the manager and the chairman. From what I've seen Fawaz has backed Billy as well as can be expected and I've seen nothing to suggest that Fawaz is dictating tactics or team selection to him.

As far as performances on the pitch are concerned I'd say 5% Fawaz and 95% Billy.

You can't blame poor players for being poor. A Messi will play like a Messi, and a Moussi will play like a Moussi. Nearly everyone on here saw a potential thrashing on the cards when the team was announced. If members of this forum know what we'll get when certain individuals are played then why can't Billy see this? If we're fielding players who aren't good enough then it's the managers fault, not the players. You either ship them out if they're not good enough or use them as best you can.

As with any other industry, the buck stops with the manager.

 

[IJPS]

Barcelona seem to take youth team coaches and still get cl semi finals. Pretty sure fergi would have struggled this season, last season they were very poor in Europe.

Slice it which ever way you want it, but both on paper and on a pitch independently of formation and tactics, we should have beaten Doncaster at home, or at least been competitive. And thats players.... not manager.

 

[tropix]

I think a manager's importance is under-stated, especially at times like these when the side is under pressure. But I don't think it's the qualities that are necessarily valued (from the outside looking in) that are most important; tactical nous, recruitment, etc. Managers tend to imprint their personality on a side, their footballing personality. I think you see a lot of evidence of this at Forest, where Davies's sides constantly play with the underdog's spirit; niggly, trying to fight from a corner even when they're winning, pushing for time, acting as if the world and the game is against them. And, like today, giving up rather than going for one last shot as soon as they feel the game is up.

Managers can be made to look good or bad by the structure. But they can also put themselves under pressure by their actions off the pitch. Davies has made a rod for his own back by making enemies with everybody he has ever come into contact with. If he was an all-round nice bloke who was simply struggling under the weight of an injury crisis, he would command a lot more love and respect from the Forest faithful than he is currently doing. And some people would be looking at the infrastructure at the club and asking whether it is really maximising our ability to be successful. BUT, and this is the crucial factor when considering Davies, and a tenure which is drawing ever more inevitably to its close, what we are seeing here under Davies is history repeating itself.

In my opinion, Davies has already left the club in his mind - his actions, his me-against-the-world attitude, his treatment of the fans and media suggest that he is readying himself for the bullet - it is just a matter of when. You'll observe this phenomena in real-life where people leave a relationship as coldly as if it was nothing, they went through the motions in their head weeks and months before. How would he know this? Well, he's made an enemy out of almost everybody above him in football. This is just Billy Davies, A History in Microcosm.

Excellent post geezer, nicely put

 

[Cortez the Killer]

"
Slice it which ever way you want it, but both on paper and on a pitch independently of formation and tactics, we should have beaten Doncaster at home, or at least been competitive. And thats players.... not manager."


So why didn't Billy play Abdoun, who was man of the match for the previous 2 games? That's manager, not players.

 

[IJPS]

"
Slice it which ever way you want it, but both on paper and on a pitch independently of formation and tactics, we should have beaten Doncaster at home, or at least been competitive. And thats players.... not manager."


So why didn't Billy play Abdoun, who was man of the match for the previous 2 games? That's manager, not players.

Very true!

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Barcelona seem to take youth team coaches and still get cl semi finals. Pretty sure fergi would have struggled this season, last season they were very poor in Europe.

Slice it which ever way you want it, but both on paper and on a pitch independently of formation and tactics, we should have beaten Doncaster at home, or at least been competitive. And thats players.... not manager.

We've been tactically poor from the get-go. It's no surprise our limit this season was 5th, despite having one of the most talented and diverse squads in the division. We've not changed anything about our game during this injury crisis and the players left aren't quite good enough to win games by brute force, which was what we built our 'success' on around the Christmas period.

The players sent out today aren't as bad a 5-0 humiliation.

Billy's been left behind in recent years. The Championship has moved on so much since his successes at Preston and Derby. The league has got faster, more technical, and successful sides have the ability to change their game as and when. Davies was getting shown up for that after 12 months here and is getting shown up even more now. Giving him another season will just see us further away from the autos again next year as his methods are 10 years out of date.

Players were a let down today, but over the course of the season only one man should take the blame, and it isn't Dan Harding this time.

 

[Cortez the Killer]

There is often some debate on here about tactics and formations but, by and large, most of us agree when something's not working. Yet Billy continues to persist. I'm not saying he's unaware, maybe just too damn pig-headed.

 

[Cortez the Killer]

Maybe it's Fawaz who needs to up his ambition, and get in a proper manager.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

There is often some debate on here about tactics and formations but, by and large, most of us agree when something's not working. Yet Billy continues to persist. I'm not saying he's unaware, maybe just too damn pig-headed.

His tactical choices this season have been either bizarre or stupid for the most parts. I don't want to count how many times you can pinpoint specfic things which have gone on to unravel in the game when other options were available. It's not just me - many other posters are left baffled by the team selection/formation pre-game and substitutions in many matches.

Took him almost half the season to change the 4-1-2-1-2 formation when it was clear it wasn't working at the back end of last season. LAST SEASON.

Managers now have to have some ability to analyse and fix issues quickly. Davies is a donkey, can't believe how many people were duped into his return here. He was rightly removed from his position here last time, just got a lucky break that we appointed exactly the wrong manager (followed by another wrong manager) and people remembered the early good from his reign whilst completely forgetting his last season here which was dross.

 

[Cortez the Killer]

Glad to see his editing suite was money well spent. I bet he just plays Minecraft on it.

 

[tropix]

In that 'behind the scenes' thing you could see that he uses the comic sans font on his pre-game dossiers. Nuff said really

 

[T.B.T.]

Bad day at the office, and lots of calls for new management, but will that change very much?

we've seen big names at the club, all underperforming. I believe that the players are what win games.

Chairman 5% impact on team performance over a season.
Manager 25%.
Team 70%

For me this puts into perspective who/where my frustration should be. But thats just my opinion.
Whats yours?

Great thread for discussion.

I don't claim to know much about football management but I think you have massively underestimated the influence of the manager on player performances.

It's true that the players need to accept some responsibility on the pitch but they are the ones under guidance to implement the gaffer's instructions. He says play wide, you play wide. He says hold back, you hold back etc. The manager is the tactician.

It's the manager's job to motivate and instil confidence, passion and desire into the mentality of those selected to play. It's not just about match day but everything he does and says has an influence and impact on the players mental and emotional state.

I can't help but think that Billy's off the field antics are creating a negative effect which is reverberating through the entire club and translating into the psychological behaviour of our squad.

 

[Francis Benali (on loan)]

I'd say Fawaz has had more impact than Billy or his players on performance because without him we'd probably only have Marlon Harewood on the books.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

I'd say Fawaz has had more impact than Billy or his players on performance because without him we'd probably only have Marlon Harewood on the books.

Fawaz has given us a squad capable of challenging for top two. Davies input has reduced that to playoffs at best. In any business, management are responsible for the success or failure of their teams. Fawaz has done far more than most of us would have imagined when he first arrived. I'm so glad that Forest are under his leadership - he has passion, determination and is a genuinely likable guy. Not sure I can say the same about Davies.

 

[nffc13]

I think a manager's importance is under-stated, especially at times like these when the side is under pressure. But I don't think it's the qualities that are necessarily valued (from the outside looking in) that are most important; tactical nous, recruitment, etc. Managers tend to imprint their personality on a side, their footballing personality. I think you see a lot of evidence of this at Forest, where Davies's sides constantly play with the underdog's spirit; niggly, trying to fight from a corner even when they're winning, pushing for time, acting as if the world and the game is against them. And, like today, giving up rather than going for one last shot as soon as they feel the game is up.

Managers can be made to look good or bad by the structure. But they can also put themselves under pressure by their actions off the pitch. Davies has made a rod for his own back by making enemies with everybody he has ever come into contact with. If he was an all-round nice bloke who was simply struggling under the weight of an injury crisis, he would command a lot more love and respect from the Forest faithful than he is currently doing. And some people would be looking at the infrastructure at the club and asking whether it is really maximising our ability to be successful. BUT, and this is the crucial factor when considering Davies, and a tenure which is drawing ever more inevitably to its close, what we are seeing here under Davies is history repeating itself.

In my opinion, Davies has already left the club in his mind - his actions, his me-against-the-world attitude, his treatment of the fans and media suggest that he is readying himself for the bullet - it is just a matter of when. You'll observe this phenomena in real-life where people leave a relationship as coldly as if it was nothing, they went through the motions in their head weeks and months before. How would he know this? Well, he's made an enemy out of almost everybody above him in football. This is just Billy Davies, A History in Microcosm.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[Husky Red]

Bad day at the office, and lots of calls for new management, but will that change very much?

we've seen big names at the club, all underperforming. I believe that the players are what win games.

Chairman 5% impact on team performance over a season.
Manager 25%.
Team 70%

For me this puts into perspective who/where my frustration should be. But thats just my opinion.
Whats yours?

I would say for forest 5 categories
1.Chairman/owner/directors (these can be separate
2.Manager & Coaching team
3.Players
4.Fans
5.Circumstances (inc chance/luck/other teams luck)

The number of injuries are down to either training methods (2) or luck (5)
Fans can lift the team or turn quickly on them and create anxiety esp at home.

So, my % would be:

Chairman/owner 15%
Mgr/coaches 35%
Players 35%
Fans 5%
Circumstances 10%

Think about Leicester, Burnley, Reading, Wigan, Derby in those terms .