Standard of Referees (Sponsored by Steven Reid)

[TrentEndMisty]

Time for DRS like they have in cricket. Give each captain one or two challenges a game.

If the ref got it wrong, you keep your review.

Such an obvious and intelligent move that... it's unlike the EPL will ever do it.

Would also massively enhance the captain's role beyond a quasi-honorary position, which would be a good thing for the game.

Moreover, the challenge regime would add to the interest and excitement of the game, rather than detract from it.

 

[Robertson]

What we have done with yesterday’s antics is ensure that we won’t get another 50:50 decision this season.

So we’re right, the refs are corrupt then.

Also would anyone notice any difference?

 

[magicwoand]

What we have done with yesterday’s antics is ensure that we won’t get another 50:50 decision this season.

 

[stockers]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the game wouldn't be significantly better without VAR. Refereeing has got worse, the number of contentious decisions increased signifcantly and more importanly the enjoyment had been taken away. Whats wrong with goal line only!! I'm at the point where i don't want to watch games anymore, its all compete bullshit..

 

[Lefkasman]

Sent from my 23124RA7EO using Tapatalk

 

[PynchonForest]

Putting the conspiricies aside for just one moment, the issue with VAR is largely a Premier League issue. Whilst I would be in favour of scrapping it altogether, most other countries and federations largely have it in a manageable state.

The PL keep changing how much interference it can have on the game here. Before they would look at every single little incident, now they will only overturn the decision on the pitch if it's "clear and obvious". This causes confusion both on the pitch and off it. The refs will hold back making major decision as they will rely on VAR to make the big calls and VAR doesn't want to overrule the on pitch decision. The people on VAR are either inexperienced officials who are expected to call out the decision of senior referees, their superiors in a way, or they are ex refs who are mates with the guy on the pitch they are now expected to call out for mistakes.

The whole thing is a mess and needs scrapping until both the technology and people at the centre of it can do a better job than the traditional model. I would start by VAR refs being a completely different body from those on field officials. Those on VAR can't be wannabe or washed up on field officials. It must be 100% independent.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

Your viewpoint is highly idealistic, albeit with a certain logic behind it.
Finding people on VAR who are not "wannabe or washed up on field officials" begs the question "Where will these people come from?".

There is a view that refereeing is somehow "easy" or something anyone with a bit of training can do.
I would strongly suggest this is not the case in any way, shape, or form. Some have suggested using ex players would be a good idea. It isn't. Ex players think they know and understand the laws, and one only has to listen to the comments from ex players concerning on field incidents to realize they have never read a lawbook, nor do they understand the logic behind some of the laws (though the logic behind some of the laws is, admittedly, highly tenuous).

Ex players understand the game, absolutely. This is why some of them would actually make excellent referees. But they often eschew reading and applying the language in the lawbook when assessing incidents. And the language in the lawbook is absolutely essential when deconstructing an incident.

What allows a better understanding of the incident, above and beyond language, is a "feel" for the game. If you combine these two things, you should have someone capable of being a good referee.

To bring up Attwell, I have never thought he was a referee who has a good "feel" for the game. His running is fantastic, he is obviously a lot fitter than someone like Simon Hooper. But his feel for the game has always been, for me, wrong. He is probably a smart guy, but he, imho, lacks a feel and empathy for situations that occur on the field and this is why his career has been riddled with more controversies than most of his peers.

He is also probably good at playing politics with those who run things. Some people are just good at "schmoozing" the right people in pretty much every occupation and I doubt reffing is any different over there. It's certainly part of it over here, in our tiny microcosm in Alberta Canada. So, who do I think should be running VAR? I think it should probably be in the hands of people like Dermot Gallagher, Clattenberg, Geoff Winter and any number of retired officials.

This, to me, seemed the logical idea when VAR was brought in. I think if you keep ex-refs up to date with law changes/new tendencies from players and so on, you'd have the perfect people to be running VAR. Coaches keep going into their seventies, why shouldn't referees? It's a perfect way to extend their careers past 45-50 or so. It would just require them to have a professional application off-field to remain "sharp".

Some probably won't do it, they have probably had enough by age 45-50. But certainly, some would. Additionally, and this idea is almost certainly going to draw serious ire, I think they should be paid more. Everyone blames referees for everything, all of the time. Some guy plays a shit ball that results in a loss for whatever side, and all is forgotten two weeks later when he has an ok game. Referees , in particular (much like politicians) , seem to maintain a level of hatred for much longer periods of time and, quite frankly, the hatred is oft times misguided and/or far greater in intensity then I would say is warranted.

They are the convenient one to blame when things go wrong. And it is certainly not limited to the sport of football. But, to get back to pay, the amount of sheer abuse they receive is probably only bettered by politicians, another clump of people who people say are "overpaid" and yet many actually take a pay cut to do public service (and yes, I am aware accessing power doesn't have a price etc etc). But anyone who thinks some person is overpaid for running a country, when some person selling f***ing houses might make 3 or 4 times their salary, well...........

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Sent from my 23124RA7EO using Tapatalk

Gallacher couldn't even bring himself to say any of our claims were pens whilst the two people who actually play football would have given us 2.

Tells you everything you need to know.

Burn it down.

 

[PynchonForest]

VAR can be done well, I see it pretty much every week in the Bundesliga, and it works.

Yesterday, in the match between Dortmund and Leverkusen, a melee erupted on 84 minutes after a robust challenge from Dortmund‘s Nico Schlotterbeck on Jeromie Frimpong.

There was pushing and shoving, a couple of players ended up on the floor, and Leverkusen‘s Victor Boniface was shown a straight red card for throwing a punch.

Cue the VAR, looking at the whole outburst.

After about five minutes, and - in a clearly correct decision - the red card to Boniface is rescinded, Schlotterbeck is booked, as is Granit Xhaka, and the game continues.

Leverkusen then score in the 97th minute, because that’s what they do.

But the point is, the use of VAR is much less contentious in Germany, mostly because it gets most situations correct. Decisions the officials either got wrong (like the red card to Boniface) or missed (like Schlotterbeck and Xhaka).

Yes it’s not always popular, because it delays the game. And it holds up celebrating goals (and there are a lot of those, in the Bundesliga…)

But if Germany‘s amateur officials can make a much more consistent and accurate use of the platform, why cannot their fully-professional counterparts in the Premier League?

Is it that English officials just aren’t very good at their jobs?

This is a legit point, 100%. I tell young refs here in Edmonton to watch the Bundesliga, specifically to watch the referees. I'm not certain what they do differently, but they obviously are doing something better. I think the EPL is a more difficult league to referee in, for a number of reasons I have highlighted in previous posts. But it's not that removed from the Prem that one shouldn't compare and contrast and come up with better solutions to what is an ongoing issue.

 

[Wes' Organ]

Your viewpoint is highly idealistic, albeit with a certain logic behind it. Finding people on VAR who are not "wannabe or washed up on field officials" begs the question "Where will these people come from?". There is a view that refereeing is somehow "easy" or something anyone with a bit of training can do. I would strongly suggest this is not the case in any way, shape, or form. Some have suggested using ex players would be a good idea. It isn't. Ex players think they know and understand the laws, and one only has to listen to the comments from ex players concerning on field incidents to realize they have never read a lawbook, nor do they understand the logic behind some of the laws (though the logic behind some of the laws is, admittedly, highly tenuous). Ex players understand the game, absolutely. This is why some of them would actually make excellent referees. But they often eschew reading and applying the language in the lawbook when assessing incidents. And the language in the lawbook is absolutely essential when deconstructing an incident. What allows a better understanding of the incident, above and beyond language, is a "feel" for the game. If you combine these two things, you should have someone capable of being a good referee. To bring up Attwell, I have never thought he was a referee who has a good "feel" for the game. His running is fantastic, he is obviously a lot fitter than someone like Simon Hooper. But his feel for the game has always been, for me, wrong. He is probably a smart guy, but he, imho, lacks a feel and empathy for situations that occur on the field and this is why his career has been riddled with more controversies than most of his peers. He is also probably good at playing politics with those who run things. Some people are just good at "schmoozing" the right people in pretty much every occupation and I doubt reffing is any different over there. It's certainly part of it over here, in our tiny microcosm in Alberta Canada. So, who do I think should be running VAR? I think it should probably be in the hands of people like Dermot Gallagher, Clattenberg, Geoff Winter and any number of retired officials. This, to me, seemed the logical idea when VAR was brought in. I think if you keep ex-refs up to date with law changes/new tendencies from players and so on, you'd have the perfect people to be running VAR. Coaches keep going into their seventies, why shouldn't referees? It's a perfect way to extend their careers past 45-50 or so. It would just require them to have a professional application off-field to remain "sharp". Some probably won't do it, they have probably had enough by age 45-50. But certainly, some would. Additionally, and this idea is almost certainly going to draw serious ire, I think they should be paid more. Everyone blames referees for everything, all of the time. Some guy plays a shit ball that results in a loss for whatever side, and all is forgotten two weeks later when he has an ok game. Referees , in particular (much like politicians) , seem to maintain a level of hatred for much longer periods of time and, quite frankly, the hatred is oft times misguided and/or far greater in intensity then I would say is warranted. They are the convenient one to blame when things go wrong. And it is certainly not limited to the sport of football. But, to get back to pay, the amount of sheer abuse they receive is probably only bettered by politicians, another clump of people who people say are "overpaid" and yet many actually take a pay cut to do public service (and yes, I am aware accessing power doesn't have a price etc etc). But anyone who thinks some person is overpaid for running a country, when some person selling f***ing houses might make 3 or 4 times their salary, well...........

Most politicians make more money out of side gigs than they do out of their day job.
Same might be true of referees I guess.

 

[GOBIAS]

Gallacher couldn't even bring himself to say any of our claims were pens whilst the two people who actually play football would have given us 2.

Tells you everything you need to know.

Burn it down.

Even he said the last one was to be fair.

I personally think he is right over the first one. At the start of the season the threshold was ridiculously low, unfortunately though they occasionally still get given. So I think he is right but also wrong if you know what I mean.

The second I don’t even know where we are with handball now. Are we back to the sensible thing where a ball smashed at someone from a yard isn’t necessarily a penalty? If so why do some still get given?

The last one they have f**ked themselves over massively as it is indisputable that Taylor was signally the ball was played. It clearly wasn’t.

Have we had our apology yet?

 

[Notcher]

Even he said the last one was to be fair.

I personally think he is right over the first one. At the start of the season the threshold was ridiculously low, unfortunately though they occasionally still get given. So I think he is right but also wrong if you know what I mean.

The second I don’t even know where we are with handball now. Are we back to the sensible thing where a ball smashed at someone from a yard isn’t necessarily a penalty? If so why do some still get given?

The last one they have f**ked themselves over massively as it is indisputable that Taylor was signally the ball was played. It clearly wasn’t.

Have we had our apology yet?

Have any of us even heard what the PGMOL said about the drop ball against Liverpool? That one seemed to get swept away pretty quickly and I've not seen any statement about it.

 

[footywithuti]

Afternoon everyone. Had quite a few Forest fans asking me to do a video on the scandalous decisions which went against them yesterday against Everton, so here it is. I’m sick to death of the deep-rooted corruption that exists within the very fabric of the sport, and am glad Forest have spoken out in the manner they have. Enough is enough!

 

[dr_horse]

Your viewpoint is highly idealistic, albeit with a certain logic behind it. Finding people on VAR who are not "wannabe or washed up on field officials" begs the question "Where will these people come from?". There is a view that refereeing is somehow "easy" or something anyone with a bit of training can do. I would strongly suggest this is not the case in any way, shape, or form. Some have suggested using ex players would be a good idea. It isn't. Ex players think they know and understand the laws, and one only has to listen to the comments from ex players concerning on field incidents to realize they have never read a lawbook, nor do they understand the logic behind some of the laws (though the logic behind some of the laws is, admittedly, highly tenuous). Ex players understand the game, absolutely. This is why some of them would actually make excellent referees. But they often eschew reading and applying the language in the lawbook when assessing incidents. And the language in the lawbook is absolutely essential when deconstructing an incident. What allows a better understanding of the incident, above and beyond language, is a "feel" for the game. If you combine these two things, you should have someone capable of being a good referee. To bring up Attwell, I have never thought he was a referee who has a good "feel" for the game. His running is fantastic, he is obviously a lot fitter than someone like Simon Hooper. But his feel for the game has always been, for me, wrong. He is probably a smart guy, but he, imho, lacks a feel and empathy for situations that occur on the field and this is why his career has been riddled with more controversies than most of his peers. He is also probably good at playing politics with those who run things. Some people are just good at "schmoozing" the right people in pretty much every occupation and I doubt reffing is any different over there. It's certainly part of it over here, in our tiny microcosm in Alberta Canada. So, who do I think should be running VAR? I think it should probably be in the hands of people like Dermot Gallagher, Clattenberg, Geoff Winter and any number of retired officials. This, to me, seemed the logical idea when VAR was brought in. I think if you keep ex-refs up to date with law changes/new tendencies from players and so on, you'd have the perfect people to be running VAR. Coaches keep going into their seventies, why shouldn't referees? It's a perfect way to extend their careers past 45-50 or so. It would just require them to have a professional application off-field to remain "sharp". Some probably won't do it, they have probably had enough by age 45-50. But certainly, some would. Additionally, and this idea is almost certainly going to draw serious ire, I think they should be paid more. Everyone blames referees for everything, all of the time. Some guy plays a shit ball that results in a loss for whatever side, and all is forgotten two weeks later when he has an ok game. Referees , in particular (much like politicians) , seem to maintain a level of hatred for much longer periods of time and, quite frankly, the hatred is oft times misguided and/or far greater in intensity then I would say is warranted. They are the convenient one to blame when things go wrong. And it is certainly not limited to the sport of football. But, to get back to pay, the amount of sheer abuse they receive is probably only bettered by politicians, another clump of people who people say are "overpaid" and yet many actually take a pay cut to do public service (and yes, I am aware accessing power doesn't have a price etc etc). But anyone who thinks some person is overpaid for running a country, when some person selling f***ing houses might make 3 or 4 times their salary, well...........

I'm a big advocate for paying refs more, with prem money being used to better support the pipeline from grass roots upwards too.

No one is turning up to watch the ref, but a good refereeing performance is as important to enjoying a game sometimes as the talent you've actually paid to see.

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

 

[donny]

Even he said the last one was to be fair.

I personally think he is right over the first one. At the start of the season the threshold was ridiculously low, unfortunately though they occasionally still get given. So I think he is right but also wrong if you know what I mean.

The second I don’t even know where we are with handball now. Are we back to the sensible thing where a ball smashed at someone from a yard isn’t necessarily a penalty? If so why do some still get given?

The last one they have f**ked themselves over massively as it is indisputable that Taylor was signally the ball was played. It clearly wasn’t.

Have we had our apology yet?

He did also say that changing the 'threshold' of what is and isn't a foul halfway through a season, may not have been the greatest idea either.

 

[Lefkasman]

They can't even draw a f***ing line in the right place. https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/27462408/var-coventry-goal-man-utd-disallowed/

Sent from my 23124RA7EO using Tapatalk

 

[Louth Red]

I think that my view would be that there isn't a proper way to raise complaints and as a result the traditional path of "make egregious error, apologise, continue to make egregious errors" is not correct and also does not permit accountability to the wider football community that are impacted.

I caveat this by saying that I do not for one second think that the job of a referee or pgmol operator is easy and that I do think that they should have a level of respect apportioned to them as custodians of the rule of the game, I am not anti authority but I am anti no one taking accountability.

That being said, the errors cost clubs points and points do reflect themselves in prize money. As a result I would say that there should be a wider but specific complaints process that could be overseen by an independent ombudsman whereby cash is provided to compensate for errors that have had a potentially determining factor on a game result, maybe on a sliding scale. A formal public process would have allowed us to make a statement which essentially would have said that we were unhappy with the performance of the officials and have raised a formal complaint would have been less inflammatory/controversial.

I would also make publicly available at the time and after conversations around decisions. Further I would also have some kind of scoring system where matches are watched back by officials and these are published in a league table format. An example would be say onfield officials made 84 live decisions correctly and 1 incorrect (Awarded a throw in the wrong way) and the same for pgmol. You could then have a rating system whereby officials were properly scored on performance and that rating is known.

The club statement is not one that you would expect to see but the focus being on the statement doesn't allow for the content to be analysed. PGMOL could have avoided it by not having the official on duty as requested. I don't think the request is unreasonable.

I don't know where we go honestly though, we were refereed by Anthony Taylor that has had beef with one of our coaches previously and booked another one yesterday. As a human being on either side of the equation surely there is an element of him having preconceived ideas about our behaviour and us having the same notions about his capabilities. We may have widened that to all onfield and off field officials now as well.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Very good response.

Sadly PL do not like clear rules and regulations (such as a tariff for breaching P & S rules) as it affords them latitude. They don’t wish to be held to account, and they don’t want an Independent Reulator.

PL Is a product of the FA. The FA is the regulator of the whole game. Its track record is abysmal. There is zero recognition of the clubs outside PL or of supporters at all levels.

Whether it’s PL officiating, FA Cup replays etc etc it is shocking.

The press have shown their true colours today. Reporters of PL clubs are out of touch with real supporters - sitting behind their press passes and hospitality. Several see yesterday as a one-off, not an ongoing saga.

 

[Flaggers]

 

[valspoodle]

I just read an article from the Independent which sort of sums up much of the debate from certain sections.

All refereeing decisions are subjective, therefore you can't have an incorrect decision!!! Pick the bones out of that.

But, to be fair to the writer of that piece, he gets so tied up in trying to be Mr Cleverdickey that his argument gets so tortuous he finishes by going up his own backside.

Also heard a report by Dorsett (forget his Christian name) on SSN where he said Stuart Atwell was a well respected VAR official. No facts in that report just either opinion or hearsay.

 

[Flaggers]

Also heard a report by Dorsett (forget his Christian name) on SSN where he said Stuart Atwell was a well respected VAR official. No facts in that report just either opinion or hearsay.

I would suspect that's Rob Dorsett

 

[Statto]

View attachment 38653

View attachment 38654

Whose turn is it to send them a turd through the letter box

 

[valspoodle]

What also annoys me is that part of our tweet was saying that our patience has been tested several times (or words to that effect).

Those other occasions have not been quoted by anybody in many lengthy comments I have read and that is the primary basis for this whole furore IMO.

 

[valspoodle]

I would suspect that's Rob Dorsett

That's the guy. Thanks.

 

[Strummer]

View attachment 38653

View attachment 38654

a.k.a. „Bend over, you’re going to get a big fine for bringing the game into disrepute“.

This could perhaps have been handled a bit better by the club, whilst maintaining their ability to criticise the officials but perhaps in a more subtle manner?

Either that, or „Big“ Evangelos had got hold of the password to the Twitter account again.

 

[Statto]

Is it appropriate for the FA, EFL and PGMOL (collectively) to send referees who consistently fail to apply the laws of the game correctly? Is it in line with the league's rules for them to consistently get these decisions wrong?

Is it appropriate for PGMOL to send an official to work on a game involving two direct relegation rivals of a club which he openly declares his support for? Is this in line with the league's rules?

Is it appropriate for PGMOL to still send said official when one of the clubs then highlights the potential conflict of interest? Is this in line with the league's rules?

Is it appropriate for PGMOL to brush under the carpet the complaints over the course of the season where clear errors of judgement have been made by both VAR and onfield officials (e.g. pen/red for Worrall vs Man U, Boly red, no pens on Neco x2, Taiwo, no pens on CHO, Reyna, Wood and Young handball)? Is this in line with the rules?

Is it appropriate for Jurgen Klopp to criticise the referees when VAR wrongly calls his side's goal offside, but not for Forest officials to make these comments after a litany of errors through the whole season? Why is the league applying 1 rule for a top 6 club and another for a side promoted 20 months ago?

It's one thing them expecting that the club follows the rules, that isn't really being called into question. But what standards are expected of them in return?

 

[Statto]

so from the PL

"It is never appropriate to improperly question the integrity of match officials"

This is spot on. But also, that means it's appropriate to properly question it?