Snatchday 1: Nottingham Forest Vs the PGMOL

[andover red]

For all of that clout, and following it's done them espousing the PL and PGMOL. Whether it's toeing a line or an inability to read a room the public support is very much in Forests corner. The media have an arrogant and false sense of belief that they are the most intelligent people in room. Extend that further and you'll see viewing figures are way down by tens of millions. People are sick of being lied to and treated like idiots with narratives and propaganda and are turning alternative sources.

There's only so much people will put up with and I firmly believe that forest shouldn't draw a line, because of the above the public can see through the nonsense. There's never been a better time to put eyes on something and try to affect change

I agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn’t just draw a line. If we do, it suggests that maybe we were just making a fuss about nothing. The occasional bad decision that every club gets.

It's correct that the majority of fans appear to be with us, but you can also see how the media have moved on - made some comments that infer Forest were in the wrong and bury the issue for good.

Hopefully we stay up, and then we need to keep ramming ir down their throats. Keep booing the anthem, keep chanting about Neville and Carragher, keep tweeting when it happens again. And finally, when the next club grumbles about a bad decision, remind them that we made a stand and their club sat back and said nothing.

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[Apollo11]

So Howard Webb applauded Peter Bankes on VAR for highlighting Man Utd’s Onana crashing into an opponent and recommended a penalty, but the same man on VAR, didn’t feel that the Man City goalkeeper crashing into Boly should have been a pen, I wonder why?

Wasn't the Boly one a 50/50 with both players attacking the ball whereas the Onana one he crashed into the Burnley player who wasn't making any forward movement?

 

[Notcher]

You are right they are not there to watch the referees, but because the quality is so bad - we end up talking about them all the time.
The EPL is a multi-billion £ per year industry.
If there were 50 EPL officials earning £100k a year - that is £5m per year
@£1Billion per year (and it is more like £3b with overseas etc) - that equates to 0.5% of revenue paid to officials - which is ludicrous in real terms when they effect so much
As in everything else in life - you get what you pay for

I don't really disagree with any of that. I was more making the point about you saying pay them properly and that £100k a year is a good salary, certainly one you'd expect to have a decent job done in return.

 

[Strummer]

You are right they are not there to watch the referees, but because the quality is so bad - we end up talking about them all the time.
The EPL is a multi-billion £ per year industry.
If there were 50 EPL officials earning £100k a year - that is £5m per year
@£1Billion per year (and it is more like £3b with overseas etc) - that equates to 0.5% of revenue paid to officials - which is ludicrous in real terms when they effect so much
As in everything else in life - you get what you pay for

But in certain other countries officials are still firmly amateur, and have day-jobs alongside their officiating duties, and yet somehow manage to do a significantly better job than their „professional“ English counterparts?

Is it really just that English officials aren’t very good?

It’s not always about throwing money at things - the Premier League does that because frankly they have money to burn, and burn it, they may as well do, and that goes for player wages, for agents‘ commissions, and for broadcast revenue as well.

Maybe, instead of thinking the answer to everything is „more money“, perhaps the Premier League could instead, learn from its counterparts in the Italian and German domestic leagues, whose officials do a significantly better job than the Premier Leagues‘ own choices?

 

[Bohinens_chip]

What is the drop off rate at academies between the age of 18 and 21 who never go on to play again? Forest must release 10 players a season in that category. If you multiply that by 44 clubs (prem and champ) you have over 400 people a year in the game who are about to leave it. If 5% of them make the grade to ref at the pro level, that might be 20 officials a year coming through the ranks where an inherent knowledge of football is built in.

Might take 10 years to come off mind you

 

[Cortez the Killer]

The problem with this has always been that by the time you're retiring as a player you're not that far off the retiring age of a referee

So you'd need to fast track ex-players into the role, and I don't think there's ever been the will there to do that

Yeah, another good point.

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[Lady Penelope]

But in certain other countries officials are still firmly amateur, and have day-jobs alongside their officiating duties, and yet somehow manage to do a significantly better job than their „professional“ English counterparts?

Is it really just that English officials aren’t very good?

It’s not always about throwing money at things - the Premier League does that because frankly they have money to burn, and burn it, they may as well do, and that goes for player wages, for agents‘ commissions, and for broadcast revenue as well.

Maybe, instead of thinking the answer to everything is „more money“, perhaps the Premier League could instead, learn from its counterparts in the Italian and German domestic leagues, whose officials do a significantly better job than the Premier Leagues‘ own choices?

it's also a factor that the majority of teams cheat, and do so with impunity. That makes the task of the officials much more difficult.

VAR and all the other cameras can spot cheating every week. I'm in favour of retrospective bans and fines for the cheats, and fines (bloody big ones) for the club.

Cut out the cheating, the games will be better, the refs will appear to be better. At the moment, cheats do prosper.

 

[oxonred]

Wasn't the Boly one a 50/50 with both players attacking the ball whereas the Onana one he crashed into the Burnley player who wasn't making any forward movement?

Yes that was the interpretation, but do you honestly think the same decision would have been made if it was Sels crashing into a City player? I don’t !!!

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

But in certain other countries officials are still firmly amateur, and have day-jobs alongside their officiating duties, and yet somehow manage to do a significantly better job than their „professional“ English counterparts?

Is it really just that English officials aren’t very good?

It’s not always about throwing money at things - the Premier League does that because frankly they have money to burn, and burn it, they may as well do, and that goes for player wages, for agents‘ commissions, and for broadcast revenue as well.

Maybe, instead of thinking the answer to everything is „more money“, perhaps the Premier League could instead, learn from its counterparts in the Italian and German domestic leagues, whose officials do a significantly better job than the Premier Leagues‘ own choices?

I don't disagree with any of that.
My thoughts were how do we improve - because they effect everything so much -this conversation just demonstrates that.
To pick up on your point, maybe we 'hire the best 10 refs from Italy, Germany, Spain where-ever and have a series of workshops - whatever it takes - which would cost some money but not an inordinate amount.
Just throwing ideas out there - because at the moment this is seriously detracting from our game

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

it's also a factor that the majority of teams cheat, and do so with impunity. That makes the task of the officials much more difficult.

VAR and all the other cameras can spot cheating every week. I'm in favour of retrospective bans and fines for the cheats, and fines (bloody big ones) for the club.

Cut out the cheating, the games will be better, the refs will appear to be better. At the moment, cheats do prosper.

I am not against that.
Diving really p****es me off - I agree with the idea of sinbins - if you lose a player for 10 mins it will cut that down very quickly.

 

[oxonred]

Wasn’t it Taylor that made a huge balls up of a major European game a while back?

 

[oxonred]

What if any, punishment has been given to Atwell after his now well publicised error, that could possibly have cost us one or maybe three points?

 

[Timothy Pope]

Just take the grey areas out of as many rules as possible. That would help the referees from having to interpret each incident.
Also get VAR to be working with the on field referee to make the correct decision - instead of using it to validate the original decision.

 

[Strummer]

I don't disagree with any of that.
My thoughts were how do we improve - because they effect everything so much -this conversation just demonstrates that.
To pick up on your point, maybe we 'hire the best 10 refs from Italy, Germany, Spain where-ever and have a series of workshops - whatever it takes - which would cost some money but not an inordinate amount.
Just throwing ideas out there - because at the moment this is seriously detracting from our game

Knut Kircher, a well respected former FIFA-accredited German official himself, is the current head of Referees for the DFB.

I think (someone please correct me?) the brillant Pierluigi Collina still leads Italian officials.

Why does the English game not get in touch with both and try and learn from them?

Because I can tell you, I watch an awful lot of Bundesliga games and I watch a fair bit of Serie A, and the officiating in both appears to be nowhere near as bad as the „so-called“ best League in the World?

Football is a fairly simple game. I just struggle to understand how arguably the most important element of such a sporting contest is so consistently rubbish?

 

[Strummer]

What if any, punishment has been given to Atwell after his now well publicised error, that could possibly have cost us one or maybe three points?

He’s been punished by being sent to Germany for a month from mid-June to mid-July, where he will have to somehow cope with reasonably priced, excellent quality bier, glorious sunny weather, decent local food, friendly, welcoming, natives, and buxom local girls wearing Dirndls.

It is horrific, I can tell you, from significant experience.

 

[Strummer]

Added to which:

If reports surface in the media of Stuart Attwell being properly filled-in during his German sojourn by an assailant who looks a bit like Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now, I can categorically state here and now, it was absolutely nothing to do with me, I was somewhere else at the time, and I can prove it.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Knut Kircher, a well respected former FIFA-accredited German official himself, is the current head of Referees for the DFB.

I think (someone please correct me?) the brillant Pierluigi Collina still leads Italian officials.

Why does the English game not get in touch with both and try and learn from them?

Because I can tell you, I watch an awful lot of Bundesliga games and I watch a fair bit of Serie A, and the officiating in both appears to be nowhere near as bad as the „so-called“ best League in the World?

Football is a fairly simple game. I just struggle to understand how arguably the most important element of such a sporting contest is so consistently rubbish?

That was my original point.
We have a multiple billion pound industry which is being ruined by the officials.
I do not believe there is any corruption - just poor officials - this should be able to be redressed

 

[Strummer]

No wonder my post count, etc.

 

[Strummer]

That was my original point.
We have a multiple billion pound industry which is being ruined by the officials.
I do not believe there is any corruption - just poor officials - this should be able to be redressed

Well, you say „ruined“, but I bet if you’re the Premier League, you are absolutely loving the controversy, because you’re getting all those important social-media clicks and attention on to every aspect of the story.

 

[PlayedOnGrass]

Well, you say „ruined“, but I bet if you’re the Premier League, you are absolutely loving the controversy, because you’re getting all those important social-media clicks and attention on to every aspect of the story.

Agreed
But as a fan - it has been pretty crap this season - knowing that all 50-50 decisions will come down on the wrong side of the coin

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

The problem with this has always been that by the time you're retiring as a player you're not that far off the retiring age of a referee

So you'd need to fast track ex-players into the role, and I don't think there's ever been the will there to do that

Did I read on here or elsewhere that academy players are being taught refereeing skills and the finer points of the game rules. If true, then players who don't make it to the top leverls of the game would have had some insights into the refereeing role when they reach the end of their career be it lower league or non-league football. Perhaps it would help in moving them into a refereeing role.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Well, you say „ruined“, but I bet if you’re the Premier League, you are absolutely loving the controversy, because you’re getting all those important social-media clicks and attention on to every aspect of the story.

Sky too. To be honest I don't see how you take the controversy out of refereeing decisions unless you can stop people like Sky reviewing the decisions by slowing them down and looking at what happened from a number of different angles.

Take away live football, ban mobiles from games, destroy the internet, and have limited highlights shows on tv with 3 or 4 games per week with just 1, maybe 2 camera angles Then you might be able to go back to the way it was 50 years when referees made errors but the only people that knew about it were those at the games, and many of those that sent letters in to the post where probably ignored by most as attention seekers.

 

[EmmersonForest4]

Football is subjective which is the problem. You see the referees made the decisions against Everton and their reasons were not unreasonabe even if Howard Webb says we should have had one. Its like in the Playoff final if Youngs on Hudson Odoi's was that means 100% Max Lowes one was a penalty. However this is how difficult it is for refs as some Forest fans see those incidents completely differently.

Also for example I dont think Reyna's one was ever a penalty in fact I thought he went down like a sack of spuds after he felt the contact not during it like most fouls. Some people agree with me and some dont on here so how is the ref meant to win??


I also understand peoples frustrations because we have had softer ones given against us. Like Rashord and that one last year agaisnt Brentford. So I get peoples frustrations but unfortunatley I dont think you can ever do something about consistency from different refs in different games becuase the rules are so vague. All I think you can expect is consistency in one game. Unless you make the rules so simple that takes greyness out the game. However even then there will be problems. Just imagine if all contact was a foul. There would be carnage and you have almost killed defending as we know it. So what I am trying to say is their is no solutions just trade offs.

 

[Alan Akbah]

Surely, now that people are less likely to have been born within wedlock than ever, there must be a more than adequate pool of people to draw potential referees from.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Football is subjective which is the problem. You see the referees made the decisions against Everton and their reasons were not unreasonabe even if Howard Webb says we should have had one. Its like in the Playoff final if Youngs on Hudson Odoi's was that means 100% Max Lowes one was a penalty. However this is how difficult it is for refs as some Forest fans see those incidents completely differently.

Also for example I dont think Reyna's one was ever a penalty in fact I thought he went down like a sack of spuds after he felt the contact not during it like most fouls. Some people agree with me and some dont on here so how is the ref meant to win??


I also understand peoples frustrations because we have had softer ones given against us. Like Rashord and that one last year agaisnt Brentford. So I get peoples frustrations but unfortunatley I dont think you can ever do something about consistency from different refs in different games becuase the rules are so vague. All I think you can expect is consistency in one game. Unless you make the rules so simple that takes greyness out the game. However even then there will be problems. Just imagine if all contact was a foul. There would be carnage and you have almost killed defending as we know it. So what I am trying to say is their is no solutions just trade offs.

I don't think it's just different refs in different games though. The same referee might see something virtually the same and make different calls at different times in the same way that someone might decide to say pick up a card one day at pontoon and not another, whether the odds dictate that they should or not.

What I don't think I've seen said so far is that it is highly possible that a soft call in one game can create such a fuss that when a similar thing happsns at a future time that the event is in the refs head and he calls this one the other way because of the reaction from clubs, pundits and fans the last time. Then when he does everyone shouts out that the refs are inconsistent.