Snatchday 1: Nottingham Forest Vs the PGMOL

[Strummer]

I’m pleased Forest have pointed out the warped nature of the league but still think the original tweet was unprofessional and the complaint should have been lodged in a more considered and measured manner.

Yes, I agree, a Tweet was clearly the wrong method of communication here, although you can understand the irritation of the football club, in the circumstances?

Such a response really should have been more considered, and delivered in writing, officially, perhaps wrapped a large housebrick and hurled through the windows of PGMOL HQ by a large, Mediterranean-appearing gentleman.

Maybe that would have properly gotten their attention?

 

[Robertson]

I'd put a small wager on it not being that one that they look at on the show, but the 1st one.

If it is that will cement it for me.

 

[toffeeblue9]

Clattenburg isn't at the centre of it though? He's employed to give his opinion.

The appointment of Clattenburg was a move by Forest (following their grievances with previous decisions) to push back at the PGMOL which basically holds refs more accountable because they are being scrutinised by someone qualified to do so. This was part 1 of where we find ourselves today, and still nothing has changed. Apart from the fact they are now not even trying to hide the way they behave of course.

A one off experience with a referee is hardly reason to suggest he's not allowed opinion a decade later to be honest.

You are, of course, correct but imagine Sunday's game, add a couple more incidents of equal levels of incompetence, imagine it was against Derby. Imagine Nuno used the word "biased" afterwards and was then charged by the PL, before dropping the charges and Taylor was then kept away from Forest for 6 years. You might, possibly, feel that there was more to it than just a bad day at the office. I give more weight to Gary Glitter's opinion on child minding than I do to Mark Clattenburg's on refereeing I'm afraid. Not your fault, obviously, but I was banned from the living room while my wife and kids watched Gladiators this year as I refused to stop booing when he was on TV.

 

[Stocky Red]

Awoniyi penalty against Newcastle @ 2-2 and controlling the game
Massive 3 points stolen

Yeah I'd forgotten about that one. I did the top five in order of screw ups, but that one arguably was the most costly in terms of points along with the Boly sending off.

 

[YouReds43]

Well I don't think it will be the 3rd pen shout as Attwell chose not to review it.
That was the most obvious out of the 3. So that is some inept officiating

 

[REDDERS78]

When are they discussing this on TV?

 

[apondaway]

Yeah I'd forgotten about that one. I did the top five in order of screw ups, but that one arguably was the most costly in terms of points along with the Boly sending off.

Boly's had the knock on effect of an automatic suspension despite how obviously poor the decision was. Unlike the Liverpool one (was it McCallister) who had his suspension revoked after a red?

 

[Browser79]

BBC newsfeed reads like a propaganda pamphlet. Who are these Forest fan ‘voices’ they dig up to undermine the club and sing their BBC tune?

 

[Baronvon]

Yeah I'd forgotten about that one. I did the top five in order of screw ups, but that one arguably was the most costly in terms of points along with the Boly sending off.

There's been so many bizarre decisions against us this season you legitimately can't remember them all.

Case in point, I'd completely forgotten about the "VAR can't give the penalty because we can't confirm the handball was in the box - despite the defender in question clearly being within his own penalty area when it hit his hand" incident until I rewatched the highlights someone linked earlier in the thread.

Maybe my anger at the Boly decision just overshadowed any other memory of that game - but regardless, it happened...and was a terrible decision that VAR got completely wrong...when the game was 0-0.

Never known anything like this in all my years of watching football - and for it to all be somehow ratified by VAR too.

It's now absurd to the point that I'm half expecting Jeremy Beadle to turn up at the end of the season and reveal it's all been an elaborate prank.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

To be fair one good thing to come out of all these statements is I bet a fair few people now know what the word "recuse" means!!

 

[Robertson]

Case in point, I'd completely forgotten about the "VAR can't give the penalty because we can't confirm the handball was in the box - despite the defender in question clearly being within his own penalty area when it hit his hand" incident until I rewatched the highlights someone linked earlier in the thread.

Then having stopped the game to determine this, awarding a goal kick.

 

[donny]

Yes, I agree, a Tweet was clearly the wrong method of communication here, although you can understand the irritation of the football club, in the circumstances?

Such a response really should have been more considered, and delivered in writing, officially, perhaps wrapped a large housebrick and hurled through the windows of PGMOL HQ by a large, Mediterranean-appearing gentleman.

Maybe that would have properly gotten their attention?

To the outsider, a tweet may be the wrong thing.
I've said elsewhere that every other method to try and have a reasoned conversation with PGMOL/Howard Webb/Sheikh Mubarak/Sheikh Envac/Sky TV/The Pope has not been as successful as hoped, so, they've stolen a bit of a measure from the clickbait industry.
They put a tweet out that they knew would grab peoples attentions, something, which they knew was going to overstep the mark, and, make people sit up and notice. Yes, it perhaps should have ben followed a couple of hours later, but, its led to the concerns of Forest, and to an extent, the wider public. Its been spoken about on daytime news, radio talk shows that don't normally venture anywhere near sport, and in areas that most people could only hope we get exposure normally.
We have, for want of a better phrase 'Gone viral' with our reaction, and, yes, we're going to get charged with something by the authorities, as, they don't like being challenged, but, if it means that football fans in this country can enjoy the game as they should do, and not be at the beck and call of the money men, as it seems to be now, then, lets do it.

 

[Project Zeus]

Stupid metrics. It's only looking at what VAR reviews.

All of our grievances are aimed at things that VAR hasn't reviewed.

Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

This has annoyed me so much - ESPN have published the most misleading garbage here. My wife has just sent it to me, presumably as a counter-point after enduring my diatribes over the last few months.

Off the top of my head, here is a list of refereeing errors since Nuno came in that have directly influenced our results.

- Brentford, Maupey distracts the on-field referee so Toney can physically move the referee's line for a free kick, scores when Forest were winning, we lose.
- Liverpool, referee completely ignores the rules and gives Liverpool possession after a head clash, they score in the last minute, we lose.
- Bournemouth, Boly red card at 0-0, we play most of the game with 10 men, we lose.
- Newcastle, Awoniyi taken out at 0-0, no review, we lose.
- West Ham, Williams taken out, no review, we win.
- Spurs, Maddison punches Yates in the stomach, they do review but see nothing wrong with it, we lose.
- Everton, 3 clear penalties, no reviews for any of them - same incidents given to other teams on the same day, we lose.

I know that VAR does not have the power to overrule all of these. They do have the power to review the penalty claims and violent conduct, and the on-field referees should catch the others.

How many points might we have won if these instances were refereed better? That's six games we lost, one we won. I'm not saying we'd have won them all, obviously we wouldn't have, but even a cynical prediction would have us three points better off, likely a few more than that. If we go down, it'll be by fewer points than that.

 

[Otis Redding]

I actually think all the questions you ask are fair ones. Forest had the moral high ground but jumped off it by making (in essence) an allegation of corruption against an individual that could never be proven. It was utterly counter-productive because it distracted from the core issue, which is not whether a particular official supports a particular club but the way the whole system is both utterly incompetent and innately biased towards the big clubs. If we were going to take on the role of brave truth-tellers, we needed to stick with truths we can stand over.

I respect that you came out almost immediately to condemn the tweet, but there's an indisputable argument that we've held the moral high ground over an accumilation of incidents over a long period but completely to no avail. Understandably, three further ones within 90-minutes on Sunday was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's self-evident from their online observations that fans of other clubs are overwhelming supportive.

 

[Irish Wolf]

The focus should be on the root cause - the bizarre (non) decisions made and not the club's statement. Competent refereeing equals no statement.

Carragher, Neville, Shearer et al are being distracted by the club's statement (or are trying to distract with the statement).

If Newcastle, Liverpool or Utd were on the recieving end of those three decsions on Sunday (taken along with a litany of decisions in previous matches) they would be taking the head staggers.

 

[Notcher]

What are you hiding chaps?

 

[Robertson]

Spurs, Maddison punches Yates in the stomach, they do review but see nothing wrong with it, we lose.

Christ - I’d forgotten that one. Probably because it had become expected by that point.

Wasn’t there a penalty not given in the home Everton game, that a lot of the nodding donkeys on TV seemed to think we could “feel hard done by” as well? Shortly before Everton went up the other end and scored.

Also Moder on Williams at Brighton. Obvious red card not given. Rubber stamped by VAR of course.

 

[Timothy Pope]

This has annoyed me so much - ESPN have published the most misleading garbage here. My wife has just sent it to me, presumably as a counter-point after enduring my diatribes over the last few months.

Off the top of my head, here is a list of refereeing errors since Nuno came in that have directly influenced our results.

- Brentford, Maupey distracts the on-field referee so Toney can physically move the referee's line for a free kick, scores when Forest were winning, we lose.
- Liverpool, referee completely ignores the rules and gives Liverpool possession after a head clash, they score in the last minute, we lose.
- Bournemouth, Boly red card in the game we saw at 0-0, we play most of the game with 10 men, we lose.
- Newcastle, Awoniyi taken out at 0-0, no review, we lose.
- West Ham, Williams taken out, no review, we win.
- Spurs, Maddison punches Yates in the stomach, they do review but see nothing wrong with it, we lose.
- Everton, 3 clear penalties, no reviews for any of them - same incidents given to other teams on the same day, we lose.

I know that VAR does not have the power to overrule all of these. They do have the power to review the penalty claims and violent conduct, and the on-field referees should catch the others.

How many points might we have won if these instances were refereed better? That's six games we lost, one we won. I'm not saying we'd have won them all, obviously we wouldn't have, but even a cynical predication would have us three points better off, likely a few more than that. If we go down, it'll be by fewer points than that.

There’s also the penalty conceded when Chris Wood wrestles an opponent to the ground at a set piece. The exact same thing happens to Ryan Yates the following game and nothing given - despite VAR Review

 

[Statto]

This has annoyed me so much - ESPN have published the most misleading garbage here. My wife has just sent it to me, presumably as a counter-point after enduring my diatribes over the last few months.

Off the top of my head, here is a list of refereeing errors since Nuno came in that have directly influenced our results.

- Brentford, Maupey distracts the on-field referee so Toney can physically move the referee's line for a free kick, scores when Forest were winning, we lose.
- Liverpool, referee completely ignores the rules and gives Liverpool possession after a head clash, they score in the last minute, we lose.
- Bournemouth, Boly red card at 0-0, we play most of the game with 10 men, we lose.
- Newcastle, Awoniyi taken out at 0-0, no review, we lose.
- West Ham, Williams taken out, no review, we win.
- Spurs, Maddison punches Yates in the stomach, they do review but see nothing wrong with it, we lose.
- Everton, 3 clear penalties, no reviews for any of them - same incidents given to other teams on the same day, we lose.

I know that VAR does not have the power to overrule all of these. They do have the power to review the penalty claims and violent conduct, and the on-field referees should catch the others.

How many points might we have won if these instances were refereed better? That's six games we lost, one we won. I'm not saying we'd have won them all, obviously we wouldn't have, but even a cynical prediction would have us three points better off, likely a few more than that. If we go down, it'll be by fewer points than that.

- Brentford, Maupey distracts the on-field referee so Toney can physically move the referee's line for a free kick, scores when Forest were winning, we lose.
Darren England

- Liverpool, referee completely ignores the rules and gives Liverpool possession after a head clash, they score in the last minute, we lose.
Paul Tierney

- Bournemouth, Boly red card at 0-0, we play most of the game with 10 men, we lose.
Rob Jones

- Newcastle, Awoniyi taken out at 0-0, no review, we lose.
Anthony Taylor

- West Ham, Williams taken out, no review, we win.
Thomas Bramall

- Spurs, Maddison punches Yates in the stomach, they do review but see nothing wrong with it, we lose.
Simon Hooper

- Everton, 3 clear penalties, no reviews for any of them - same incidents given to other teams on the same day, we lose.
Anthony Taylor

We also have
- Brentford, Niakhate red card
Paul Tierney

- Man U - Pen on Rashford for dive/Worrall red
Stuart Attwell

- Everton, No pen given for a clear foul
Paul Tierney

- Brighton, no pen given for foul on Neco
Michael Salisbury

Which match was the handball / goal kick incident in? And the Wood/Yates incidents mentioned by @Timothy Pope ?


Also any more?

 

[oxonred]

Latest club statement on official website.

Following yesterday’s match at Everton, NFFC issued a statement highlighting our concern at the perception of the PGMOL appointment of VAR for the game. This was an issue we raised with PGMOL prior to the fixture because of the fear of the side show that would ensue if anything went wrong with officiating in the game. That fear has materialised, as the correctness of three important decisions against the Club have been called into doubt.

This is not about individuals but rather how the integrity of the game is seen. We know match officials do not allow outside factors to influence their decision-making and that all referees are required to declare their ‘allegiances’ to PGMOL to avoid any perceived conflict or harm to the game’s reputation for integrity.

However, it is clear PGMOL must amend its rule on allegiances to account for contextual rivalries in the league table, not just local rivalries. This is currently not within the criteria but should be. Mere reliance on match officials to recuse themselves if contextual rivalries exist invites conjecture, as some have recused themselves where others have not.

NFFC stands by its request for greater transparency around PGMOL appointments to further protect the game’s reputation, as intended in PGMOL’s existing approach to allegiances.

Given the widespread and ongoing concerns, not merely of the fans, players and managers of this Club but of many others and the pundits too, over VAR decisions throughout this season any move which boosts confidence in the system should be properly considered.

This is how it should have been done, but can understand the absolute anger at the end of the game.

 

[Robertson]

We also have
- Brentford, Niakhate red card
Paul Tierney

We have to accept this one as the right decision IMO

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

What are you hiding chaps?

They released Liverpool's.

Release ours.

Otherwise get sued.

Edit: Funny how media chooses its words as well. The BBC main headines is "Forest offered chance to listen to VAR audio" rather than "Forest denied request for public release of audio."

 

[Timothy Pope]

- Brentford, Maupey distracts the on-field referee so Toney can physically move the referee's line for a free kick, scores when Forest were winning, we lose.
Darren England

- Liverpool, referee completely ignores the rules and gives Liverpool possession after a head clash, they score in the last minute, we lose.
Paul Tierney

- Bournemouth, Boly red card at 0-0, we play most of the game with 10 men, we lose.
Rob Jones

- Newcastle, Awoniyi taken out at 0-0, no review, we lose.
Anthony Taylor

- West Ham, Williams taken out, no review, we win.
Thomas Bramall

- Spurs, Maddison punches Yates in the stomach, they do review but see nothing wrong with it, we lose.
Simon Hooper

- Everton, 3 clear penalties, no reviews for any of them - same incidents given to other teams on the same day, we lose.
Anthony Taylor

We also have
- Brentford, Niakhate red card
Paul Tierney

- Man U - Pen on Rashford for dive/Worrall red
Stuart Attwell

- Everton, No pen given for a clear foul
Paul Tierney

- Brighton, no pen given for foul on Neco
Michael Salisbury

Which match was the handball / goal kick incident in? And the Wood/Yates incidents mentioned by @Timothy Pope ?


Also any more?

Yates penalty was Everton. They scored just after . So the Woods penalty must have been Brighton

 

[congo_red_49]

- Brentford, Maupey distracts the on-field referee so Toney can physically move the referee's line for a free kick, scores when Forest were winning, we lose.
Darren England

- Liverpool, referee completely ignores the rules and gives Liverpool possession after a head clash, they score in the last minute, we lose.
Paul Tierney

- Bournemouth, Boly red card at 0-0, we play most of the game with 10 men, we lose.
Rob Jones

- Newcastle, Awoniyi taken out at 0-0, no review, we lose.
Anthony Taylor

- West Ham, Williams taken out, no review, we win.
Thomas Bramall

- Spurs, Maddison punches Yates in the stomach, they do review but see nothing wrong with it, we lose.
Simon Hooper

- Everton, 3 clear penalties, no reviews for any of them - same incidents given to other teams on the same day, we lose.
Anthony Taylor

We also have
- Brentford, Niakhate red card
Paul Tierney

- Man U - Pen on Rashford for dive/Worrall red
Stuart Attwell

- Everton, No pen given for a clear foul
Paul Tierney

- Brighton, no pen given for foul on Neco
Michael Salisbury

This is a pretty damning list in terms of quantity over the course of a season.

 

[Canadian_red]

I still think the Niakhate red was a red but I also think the Brighton red was way more a red.