Is Cooper the Anti-Clough?

[Redemption]

I don't mean this like anti-christ.

I mean it like an antidote. Not the antidote to Clough himself but the spectre of Clough that has haunted every manager to follow him (with poss exception of Frank Clark).

Cooper could not be any more unlike Clough if he tried. Their personality, leadership style, and philosophy are very different.

Cooper doesn't fear the memory, he seems to thrive on it without trying to emulate it in any way.

I was thinking about this for a few weeks but the Forza display on Tuesday real made me appreciate it. Clough and Taylor, imperious conquerors of the past, Cooper a man ready to conquer the future.

It seemed to put this in perspective. A leader to acknowledge past glories and build on them but in his own style.

Is it something the club has needed?

 

[Haych]

Does this mean we will be the third team to go up this season and win the league next year?

 

[EmmersonForest4]

One of my biggest issues in football is when managers get employed because they "know the club".

Look at all the top managers in history majority of the time they dont know the clubs they were employed at. Take Solksjaer he got employed for just being a united player to continue the Ferguson era. It's stupid because when United firstly got Busby he was a Man City legend playing 250 games for the blue side of Manchester and Ferguson was already an outstanding manager more like the Ten Haag appointment.

Look at Pep at City he also has changed the playing style from Mancini and Pellegrini and Klopp has changed the playing style from Shankly and Paisley. I mention this as well because clubs also think they have a "way" of playing. West Ham being the biggest propeonents of that shite.

To your original point again I think what was needed at Forest was just a good manager and they are not around all the time and the board have done fantastic in my view to make the changes they have done in summer. It was needed but not because he was the anti clough but just because Cooper is a great manager. Billy Davies our last great manager you could argue was more like Clough as well.

Morale of the story is just appoint a good manager and don't use sentiment.

I make all those points above because it relates to the point that it dosent really matter if Cooper is the anti clough or clough reborn im my mind to be successful. Cooper is the anti clough in every way and I think you have to be nowadays because of the over inflated egos in football. The manager is also powerless now as he gets the chop for the shit performances.

 

[Otis Redding]

Different eras, different levels and different formations, but SC's counter-attacking philosophy uncannily mirrors BC's at times.

 

[Cloughie1975]

Different eras, different levels and different formations, but SC's counter-attacking philosophy uncannily mirrors BC's at times.

Also,his ability to make the best of what he’s got mirrors the majority of Clough’s reign at Forest.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

His management approach might be different and less dictatorial but his perspective and framing is similar - simple processes and clear instructions underpinned by unity.

I think the narrative on Clough is over-simplified. From interviews with ex-players, it is clear Clough put much more trust in the individual to make decisions on the pitch than the narrative would imply i.e. Clough as the over-bearing disciplinarian.

 

[cheapseats]

I don't mean this like anti-christ.

I mean it like an antidote. Not the antidote to Clough himself but the spectre of Clough that has haunted every manager to follow him (with poss exception of Frank Clark).

Cooper could not be any more unlike Clough if he tried. Their personality, leadership style, and philosophy are very different.

Cooper doesn't fear the memory, he seems to thrive on it without trying to emulate it in any way.

I was thinking about this for a few weeks but the Forza display on Tuesday real made me appreciate it. Clough and Taylor, imperious conquerors of the past, Cooper a man ready to conquer the future.

It seemed to put this in perspective. A leader to acknowledge past glories and build on them but in his own style.

Is it something the club has needed?

Are you training for a job as a journalist with the gutter press with titles like that?

 

[cheapseats]

His management approach might be different and less dictatorial but his perspective and framing is similar - simple processes and clear instructions underpinned by unity.

I think the narrative on Clough is over-simplified. From interviews with ex-players, it is clear Clough put much more trust in the individual to make decisions on the pitch than the narrative would imply i.e. Clough as the over-bearing disciplinarian.

Which actually is what Coops does. He goes on time again about not "overcomplicating" it on the pitch and getting players to express themselves and try things. Fundamentally that was what Clough was like-Cloughie also liked "break" football because it created space for better players. I think there are quite a lot of similarities although I'd think that everything else-fitness, diet, training regimes will be a lot more scientific under SC!

 

[Project Zeus]

Welcome back, Redemption!

Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

 

[HBB]

Different eras, different levels and different formations, but SC's counter-attacking philosophy uncannily mirrors BC's at times.

It may well be stretching the analogy too far but are Dane and Cooper the new Clough and Taylor?

One thing that typified the pair was their ability to spot hidden talent and coach and mould players in to their system.

 

[Rzar]

The guy is such a quality coach, and we are getting him at the start of his career.

His record elsewhere alone dictates we are lucky to have him. Won the world cup with U17's, and 3 full seasons as a manager and 3 playoff finishes (probably all against the odds?)

He won't stay at this level for long with or without us, he will end up at the highest level eventually because his methods work amazingly.

The crowd at games & demand for tickets probably tells you how much better he is than every manager we have had this millenium. McGovern saying the place is more buzzing than it was during the European days.

 

[Redemption]

Are you training for a job as a journalist with the gutter press with titles like that?

I certainly borrowed the click-bait approach. :tophat:

 

[Cortez the Killer]

I certainly borrowed the click-bait approach. :tophat:

"You'll never believe what Redemption thinks about Steve Cooper! Click here to read the story..."

Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk

 

[PynchonForest]

Tactics and man management are miles away from where they used to be, certainly, so on the surface I can't really agree with the title. Players had way less power back then and managers , well, we all know how Clough treated some players. But the countering certainly is an apt comparison (as someone above pointed out). Let's hope Cooper can start a similar era, in terms of successes.

 

[Redemption]

Clough was the perfect manager for the personality-era of managers with the opening up of football on TV. it was as much about his smart-quip as it was his tactical genius. But he was the front guy, the main man, etc, yada yad.

You couldn't imagine Cooper on Parky with Ali, for example.

I'm not trying to make one better or the other, that kind of comparison is fruitless.

The question is about the Cooper's fit for the role of excorcising Clough's spectre.?

That's why I though that Forza image on Tuesday was so powerful. Clough still walks on water while Cooper is having success in his own image.

Shall we bring Billy Davies into the discussion yet?

 

[congo_red_49]

The question is about the Cooper's fit for the role of excorcising Clough's spectre.?

In a way - I don't think any manager will ever fully exorcise Clough - because I don't believe a club like ours will be able to hit the same highs that Clough did. Modern football has just moved on too much for that.
But, realistically, just going someway to easing the pain of the last 30 odd years might be good enough.

 

[Raymondo Ponte']

Great posts.

There never as and never will be another Clough.
And that means right up until society eventually eats up this planet and human existance is no more (and it will happen).

Coops aint bad tho

 

[Redemption]

In a way - I don't think any manager will ever fully exorcise Clough - because I don't believe a club like ours will be able to hit the same highs that Clough did. Modern football has just moved on too much for that.
But, realistically, just going someway to easing the pain of the last 30 odd years might be good enough.

It's not exorcising Clough but the shadow. We've sen it at other clubs. Man Utd can't get a decent manager to turn around their fortunes because Ferguson is literally sat there in the stands. Wenger still lingers at Highbury.

To move on, even if you may never get to the same heights, you have have to tread a careful line of respect the past but not let it shape how you build the future.

This season has let us dream again.

 

[Eddie Yates]

I think Clough would massively approve of SC due to the style of play and the way Cooper & the players conduct themselves

Kinnear, Hughton, Megson, Platt, Davis, Cotteril ect would get right on Cloughie's tits

 

[Otis Redding]

Kinnear, Hughton, Megson, Platt, Davis, Cotteril ect would get right on Cloughie's tits

Cloughie certainly made his opinion of Megson's playing ability quite clear - "....can't trap a bag of cement".

 

[RedDogChris]

Cloughie certainly made his opinion of Megson's playing ability quite clear - "....can't trap a bag of cement".

Crap player and a poor man's Tony Pulis as a manager

 

[Captain Sinister]

I think there is a danger of over-thinking the Cooper and clough comparisons.
For me it is quite simple: Cloughhad the players working as a team.
How often was it said, Clough took indivdual players and bonded them into a team where the whole was far greater than the sum of the parts.
He led that team by his sheer strength of character, and by not making any concessions to any individual player if those concessions were not in Clough's mind essential to the overall team.
Clough, like Klopp and Guardiola, also made a point of bringing in new players and letting established players go, to keep the mix fresh.
With Peter taylor by his side, that policy worked because Taylor was the man who could spot the right player that would work in the team.
Clough's weakness was that he couldn't do that without Taylor's input, and as a result the changes to personnel did not generally improve the mix, hence the inevitability of the decline aftr Taylor departed.
I also think that Clough carried a burden of guilt that he would never admit to, and that guilt over his treatment of Taylor that led up to Taylor departing really ate away at Clough's psyche and the team saw it happening, and as a result the team went into the long term decline.
Successive managers were simply not confident enough, or big enough, or good enough to overcome Clough's shadow and ghost from the Club, and with the exception of Dave Bassett, and possibly Billy Davies, none of them were able to galvanise the indivu=idual talents of the players to produce an entertaining team, nor one that could produce the results.
Cooper came in with a different public persona - quietr, less bombastic, but he has taken a defeated squad and brought them together as a team who could take on the Musketeers' cry of "one for all, and all for one".
Cooper has his own style and approach that is different from that of Clough, but because he brought about an instant turnaround, and has sustained that improvement, delivering attractive, exciting, and winning football, finally we have someone who has finally laid the ghost of Clough to rest.
I doubt that ghost will return to haunt the Club while Cooper remains in charge.
I also expect to see Cooper adopt a Klopp/Guardiola approach and despite the success the current crop of players has delivered to date (recognising we still haven't won anything)I expect him, should we remain in the Championship, to continue to refresh the squad, and to continue to bond and blend the new players into a winning and entertaining team.
If we do progress via the upcoming play-off final, Cooper will certainly have to make big changes to the squad for us to survive the difficult first year in back in the Premiership.
But whatever the paly-off final brings, I firmly believe that at long last that shadow of the last great man, great manager will be expunged.
Cooper, the fans, and the rest of the Club will never forget what Brain Clough did for us.
However, at long last the current manager will not be measured against the Clough Yardstick.
Funnily enough, I think Man Ure are in a similar state of haunting by the shadow of Sir Alex, as since his departure there has not been a single manager appointed from the endless succession who has had the qualities to lay what Sir Alex achieved to rest.
When Cooper does depart, as he will at some point (hopefully in many years to come), it will be the Cooper Yardstick against which new managers will be measured.

 

[Cloughie1975]

I think there is a danger of over-thinking the Cooper and clough comparisons.
For me it is quite simple: Cloughhad the players working as a team.
How often was it said, Clough took indivdual players and bonded them into a team where the whole was far greater than the sum of the parts.
He led that team by his sheer strength of character, and by not making any concessions to any individual player if those concessions were not in Clough's mind essential to the overall team.
Clough, like Klopp and Guardiola, also made a point of bringing in new players and letting established players go, to keep the mix fresh.
With Peter taylor by his side, that policy worked because Taylor was the man who could spot the right player that would work in the team.
Clough's weakness was that he couldn't do that without Taylor's input, and as a result the changes to personnel did not generally improve the mix, hence the inevitability of the decline aftr Taylor departed.
I also think that Clough carried a burden of guilt that he would never admit to, and that guilt over his treatment of Taylor that led up to Taylor departing really ate away at Clough's psyche and the team saw it happening, and as a result the team went into the long term decline.
Successive managers were simply not confident enough, or big enough, or good enough to overcome Clough's shadow and ghost from the Club, and with the exception of Dave Bassett, and possibly Billy Davies, none of them were able to galvanise the indivu=idual talents of the players to produce an entertaining team, nor one that could produce the results.
Cooper came in with a different public persona - quietr, less bombastic, but he has taken a defeated squad and brought them together as a team who could take on the Musketeers' cry of "one for all, and all for one".
Cooper has his own style and approach that is different from that of Clough, but because he brought about an instant turnaround, and has sustained that improvement, delivering attractive, exciting, and winning football, finally we have someone who has finally laid the ghost of Clough to rest.
I doubt that ghost will return to haunt the Club while Cooper remains in charge.
I also expect to see Cooper adopt a Klopp/Guardiola approach and despite the success the current crop of players has delivered to date (recognising we still haven't won anything)I expect him, should we remain in the Championship, to continue to refresh the squad, and to continue to bond and blend the new players into a winning and entertaining team.
If we do progress via the upcoming play-off final, Cooper will certainly have to make big changes to the squad for us to survive the difficult first year in back in the Premiership.
But whatever the paly-off final brings, I firmly believe that at long last that shadow of the last great man, great manager will be expunged.
Cooper, the fans, and the rest of the Club will never forget what Brain Clough did for us.
However, at long last the current manager will not be measured against the Clough Yardstick.
Funnily enough, I think Man Ure are in a similar state of haunting by the shadow of Sir Alex, as since his departure there has not been a single manager appointed from the endless succession who has had the qualities to lay what Sir Alex achieved to rest.
When Cooper does depart, as he will at some point (hopefully in many years to come), it will be the Cooper Yardstick against which new managers will be measured.

I’d suggest Clough’s management after Taylor left was superb for the best part of 10 years(2 League Cups,
3 3rd place finishes,FA Cup runners up,League Cup runners up,UEFA Cup semi-finalists and 2 FA Cup semi-finals
allied to a lovely style of football prove this).
Also,it should be remembered that Clough did a lot of the spadework before Taylor arrived in 1976(getting rid
of deadwood and signing McGovern,O’Hare,Clark,Barrett and Curran).We also only lost 2 in 16 before Taylor joined.
To say that Clough couldn’t do it by himself is wide of the truth-although Taylor clearly played a significant
part alongside Clough(both at Forest and Derby).

 

[DizzyBala]

The things I admire most about him are his desire for us to go and win no matter what. It could be Manchester City, Cardiff City or Chester City and the approach would be the same.
I think that is truly the Forest way. We've been underdogs for pretty much our entire history. In the past 20 years, it's been about our youth players leading the charge too.
Steve combines both that attacking spirit and the youth beautifully.

I think it would take a lot to compare him with Brian Clough to be completely honest.
I think Frank Clark is the next best manager after him. To go from promotion to the Premiership to finishing third and the quarter finals of the UEFA Cup was a phenomenal achievement.
I also look at that 97-98 season where we tore up the Championship under Dave Bassett.

IF we go up, then he's on par with Dave Bassett. IF we don't go up, I think he's on par with Billy Davies.

This thread was about comparisons, I'd make the comparison with Billy under his first run before things went sour.
Lovely football, long consistent runs, taking a struggling team and getting it singing as well as a complete confidence in the team to get results every week.

 

[Redemption]

The things I admire most about him are his desire for us to go and win no matter what. It could be Manchester City, Cardiff City or Chester City and the approach would be the same.
I think that is truly the Forest way. We've been underdogs for pretty much our entire history. In the past 20 years, it's been about our youth players leading the charge too.
Steve combines both that attacking spirit and the youth beautifully.

I think it would take a lot to compare him with Brian Clough to be completely honest.
I think Frank Clark is the next best manager after him. To go from promotion to the Premiership to finishing third and the quarter finals of the UEFA Cup was a phenomenal achievement.
I also look at that 97-98 season where we tore up the Championship under Dave Bassett.

IF we go up, then he's on par with Dave Bassett. IF we don't go up, I think he's on par with Billy Davies.

This thread was about comparisons, I'd make the comparison with Billy under his first run before things went sour.
Lovely football, long consistent runs, taking a struggling team and getting it singing as well as a complete confidence in the team to get results every week.

Yes, I bought into Cooper when we lost 4-0 at Home to Fulham.

At 2-0 down, he swapped a midfielder for a striker and defender for a midfielder. It didn't work, obviously, but I think Basset was the last manager who would throw an attack at a losing game.