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Standard of Referees (Sponsored by Steven Reid)
- Thread starter Tartan Tart Ups
- Start date
PynchonForest
John Robertson
While I think the only true PK was the Young challenge from behind on CHO, I also think this whole corruption angle is completely embarrassing. I mean, it's not my country, so I suppose I don't really know. But I don't think or understand why there is any sort of conspiracy to make sure we get relegated. We are a club with a higher profile than any number of sides in the Prem, have great fans and so on. So what is the basis of a conspiracy?
I'm Red Till Dead
Stuart Pearce
I see Clattenburg has written a piece in the Daily Mail. I'm sure someone must have added it somewhere but I didn't see it.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ties-Everton-mind-boggling-avoided-PGMOL.html
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ties-Everton-mind-boggling-avoided-PGMOL.html
ubik
Geoff Thomas
Maybe not totally relevant, but feels so.
ubik
Geoff Thomas
It's not a conspiracy theory, just 'Why do we get such shit decisions all the time?'
thehockleyhustler
Stuart Pearce
Putting the conspiricies aside for just one moment, the issue with VAR is largely a Premier League issue. Whilst I would be in favour of scrapping it altogether, most other countries and federations largely have it in a manageable state.
The PL keep changing how much interference it can have on the game here. Before they would look at every single little incident, now they will only overturn the decision on the pitch if it's "clear and obvious". This causes confusion both on the pitch and off it. The refs will hold back making major decision as they will rely on VAR to make the big calls and VAR doesn't want to overrule the on pitch decision. The people on VAR are either inexperienced officials who are expected to call out the decision of senior referees, their superiors in a way, or they are ex refs who are mates with the guy on the pitch they are now expected to call out for mistakes.
The whole thing is a mess and needs scrapping until both the technology and people at the centre of it can do a better job than the traditional model. I would start by VAR refs being a completely different body from those on field officials. Those on VAR can't be wannabe or washed up on field officials. It must be 100% independent.
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The PL keep changing how much interference it can have on the game here. Before they would look at every single little incident, now they will only overturn the decision on the pitch if it's "clear and obvious". This causes confusion both on the pitch and off it. The refs will hold back making major decision as they will rely on VAR to make the big calls and VAR doesn't want to overrule the on pitch decision. The people on VAR are either inexperienced officials who are expected to call out the decision of senior referees, their superiors in a way, or they are ex refs who are mates with the guy on the pitch they are now expected to call out for mistakes.
The whole thing is a mess and needs scrapping until both the technology and people at the centre of it can do a better job than the traditional model. I would start by VAR refs being a completely different body from those on field officials. Those on VAR can't be wannabe or washed up on field officials. It must be 100% independent.
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Agent Penguin
Geoff Thomas
No.
In his own word “"Until now, that is, because I’ll be working with Forest under the title of ‘Match and Performance Analyst.' I will help in the understanding of how and why certain decisions are made, prepare pre-match packs on the officiating teams taking charge of their fixtures, and one of my other main aims will be improving the relationship between the club and the PGMOL”
MaxiRobriguez
Bob McKinlay
The PL generate their money primarily through the marketing of six successful teams. It is in their interest to maintain the status quo and where possible reduce the threat of top six hegemony being disrupted.
That is the whole point of FFP. By the way it's constructed it gives a competitive advantage to those top six teams. There are plenty of other models that could have been chosen which could have been put in place to protect all clubs from financial overspending risks whilst keeping the spirit of competition, but they chose not to. Similarly the move to a % of revenue approach which they're currently mulling over gives an even greater advantage over spending allowances to the top six and they're pushing through with this despite no high profile club bankruptcies or administration's in what, five years?
What's this got to do with Forest and shit decisions you may ask? Well Forest might not be challenging for a top six spot any time soon but what we are doing is demonstrating a different approach to club progression by breaking through ceilings: spending lots, huge attrition rates of players, the impact of our fans on home games (at least last season), permanently calling out perceived referee bias towards top six clubs like we did Vs Man Utd.
All of that is a worry for the PL as if more established PL clubs, say a Crystal Palace or Brentford, decide they're not content with permanent bottom half finishes and enact a note aggressive approach, then it increases the chance the top six get displaced. It doesn't mean Brentfords or Palaces will be successful, some of them will fail spectacularly, but the more non six clubs take an aggressive approach then the more likely one or two of them will crack it and displace shit like Man Utd who if it weren't for refereeing decisions would already be out of the top six this season.
The PL can prevent this risk by ensuring Forest fail spectacularly so that it becomes a model clubs don't wish to follow. Don't just have Forest finishing bottom half, have them relegated and losing the PL revenue stream entirely, the biggest impact of all.
VAR can be done well, I see it pretty much every week in the Bundesliga, and it works.
Yesterday, in the match between Dortmund and Leverkusen, a melee erupted on 84 minutes after a robust challenge from Dortmund‘s Nico Schlotterbeck on Jeromie Frimpong.
There was pushing and shoving, a couple of players ended up on the floor, and Leverkusen‘s Victor Boniface was shown a straight red card for throwing a punch.
Cue the VAR, looking at the whole outburst.
After about five minutes, and - in a clearly correct decision - the red card to Boniface is rescinded, Schlotterbeck is booked, as is Granit Xhaka, and the game continues.
Leverkusen then score in the 97th minute, because that’s what they do.
But the point is, the use of VAR is much less contentious in Germany, mostly because it gets most situations correct. Decisions the officials either got wrong (like the red card to Boniface) or missed (like Schlotterbeck and Xhaka).
Yes it’s not always popular, because it delays the game. And it holds up celebrating goals (and there are a lot of those, in the Bundesliga…)
But if Germany‘s amateur officials can make a much more consistent and accurate use of the platform, why cannot their fully-professional counterparts in the Premier League?
Is it that English officials just aren’t very good at their jobs?
Yesterday, in the match between Dortmund and Leverkusen, a melee erupted on 84 minutes after a robust challenge from Dortmund‘s Nico Schlotterbeck on Jeromie Frimpong.
There was pushing and shoving, a couple of players ended up on the floor, and Leverkusen‘s Victor Boniface was shown a straight red card for throwing a punch.
Cue the VAR, looking at the whole outburst.
After about five minutes, and - in a clearly correct decision - the red card to Boniface is rescinded, Schlotterbeck is booked, as is Granit Xhaka, and the game continues.
Leverkusen then score in the 97th minute, because that’s what they do.
But the point is, the use of VAR is much less contentious in Germany, mostly because it gets most situations correct. Decisions the officials either got wrong (like the red card to Boniface) or missed (like Schlotterbeck and Xhaka).
Yes it’s not always popular, because it delays the game. And it holds up celebrating goals (and there are a lot of those, in the Bundesliga…)
But if Germany‘s amateur officials can make a much more consistent and accurate use of the platform, why cannot their fully-professional counterparts in the Premier League?
Is it that English officials just aren’t very good at their jobs?
Timothy Pope
I know that Nuno that I know that Nuno that I know
Posted this in the wrong thread. Can anyone answer?
YellowBelly Red
Viv Anderson
I bet Howard Webb loves a Monday morning after we've played.
Rubics
Bin VAR!
He was asked as he left Wembley yesterday if he’d spoke to anyone at Forest, head down, mouth shut and walk a bit faster!
Statto
Free Kick Specialist
Isn't it usually the same select group of officials who are refereeing onfield and the VAR? For example when we had the Worrall/Rashford incident at Old Trafford early in the season, Attwell was the ref and Taylor was on VAR. Yesterday Taylor was the ref and Attwell was on VAR.
So they are basically scrutinising their peers and their colleagues which might feel difficult if for example one of the newer refs who is in select group 2 got promoted to the main list (maybe Sam Allison or the female ref who have done PL matches) and then try to tell someone like Paul Tierney or Michael Oliver who's been on the top list for years that they've got a penalty wrong.
It should be a specialist team who work on VAR only
Robertson
Geoff Thomas
They’re just… cnuts? That are butthurt we questioned their competence back in August?
youreds1986
Geoff Thomas
Only one of those yesterday was a stone waller. The other two were debatable (I wouldn't have given the first, I would have probably given the second)
But the idea that the PL or PGMOL are giving their officials a nod and a wink to favour Everton (who they have given two separate points deductions to) over us is just batshit crazy, and frankly embarrassing.
We have definitely had some shit decisions going against us this year. But it's not some grand conspiracy. It's shit officiating. Really shit.
And acting like the victim, and spreading a culture of such through the club, during a relegation battle is so f***ing counter productive it is untrue. As soon as any organisation lashes out and blames uncontrollable external factors rather than controlling the variables they actually can control, you know they are in trouble.
But the idea that the PL or PGMOL are giving their officials a nod and a wink to favour Everton (who they have given two separate points deductions to) over us is just batshit crazy, and frankly embarrassing.
We have definitely had some shit decisions going against us this year. But it's not some grand conspiracy. It's shit officiating. Really shit.
And acting like the victim, and spreading a culture of such through the club, during a relegation battle is so f***ing counter productive it is untrue. As soon as any organisation lashes out and blames uncontrollable external factors rather than controlling the variables they actually can control, you know they are in trouble.
Templeton
First Team Squad
My view exactly. This is just giving everyone involved something to hide behind and feel sorry for themselves.
Robertson
Geoff Thomas
Doesn’t matter what you personally would and wouldn’t have given. What matters is what have and haven’t been given in pretty much every other premier league game this season.
Anyway - just the one stonewaller not given for us today lads? Guess that’s ok then.
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Bobby The Brain
Weasel
They shouldn’t know the on field decision when looking at the footage. Removes the bias.
Cortez the Killer
Impressive member
It strikes me that VAR is just there to back up the referee, irrespective of whether his decision is right or wrong.
The VAR officials are work colleagues of the ref. They talk to each other using nicknames like they're mates (they probably are). Who wants to drop their mates in the shit? No integrity, no accountability, no professionalism. They're the ones stealing a living from the game. It's widely reported that the PL is the best league in the world. Isn't it time that we had the best officials too?
Sent from my SM-G780G using Tapatalk
The VAR officials are work colleagues of the ref. They talk to each other using nicknames like they're mates (they probably are). Who wants to drop their mates in the shit? No integrity, no accountability, no professionalism. They're the ones stealing a living from the game. It's widely reported that the PL is the best league in the world. Isn't it time that we had the best officials too?
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MaxiRobriguez
Bob McKinlay
If you look at the really terrible decisions we've probably racked up 3 against us (Boly, Young's 3rd one yesterday, Rashford dive) with 0 for us. In terms of 50/50's we've had 2 go for us? (Berge handball, Wissa brought down by Turner). There might be one or two more but it pales in comparison to the 15 odd "50/50"'s we've not had our way? (2 yesterday, 2x Neco pens turned down, 1x Awoniyi pen turned down, Niakhate red card, Yates pen vs Everton, Liverpool given the ball back, Toney's moving the ball.... That's 9 off the top of my head but I know there's more that I'm forgetting.
So that's 3 for and 18+ against.
The statistical probability of that distributing being caused randomly by "incomptence" is 0.003%...
Robertson
Geoff Thomas
I still think the Turner one on Wissa shouldn’t be a foul, and that’s a hill I’m prepared to die on 
. Same as the two Gordon ‘won’ against West Ham. Just runs into the man’s leg in the act of kicking from a blind spot behind and to the side of him and falls over.
That said, the decisions should have been consistent, so all given or none given.
. Same as the two Gordon ‘won’ against West Ham. Just runs into the man’s leg in the act of kicking from a blind spot behind and to the side of him and falls over.That said, the decisions should have been consistent, so all given or none given.
donny
Grenville Morris
I
Going back, Mark Halsey and Jeff Winter have basically said match outcomes were affected by officials in the 80s due to outside influences.
If VAR was a truly independent being to the match, run ,like it is now, off site, but by officials from other countries who can provide decision making where their decisions aren't swayed by the fact they may upset the guy whose stag do you're going on next week.
If this were refereed without VAR, you'd see 2 of those given as a minimum (the handball and the CHO one), but, also, cos the media has portrayed us as being 'rulebreakers', we're suddenly the bad guys.
I've said it elsewhere, but VAR has an element of allowing the poor performers to mark their own homework about it. Mike Dean said that he would often hold back on overturning a decision if the ref was having a poor game. That's a guy who was one of the more 'high profile' refs we had, how do we not know more do the same.
Going back, Mark Halsey and Jeff Winter have basically said match outcomes were affected by officials in the 80s due to outside influences.
If VAR was a truly independent being to the match, run ,like it is now, off site, but by officials from other countries who can provide decision making where their decisions aren't swayed by the fact they may upset the guy whose stag do you're going on next week.
If this were refereed without VAR, you'd see 2 of those given as a minimum (the handball and the CHO one), but, also, cos the media has portrayed us as being 'rulebreakers', we're suddenly the bad guys.
magicwoand
It tizwas it is
What I don’t understand is all the bad decisions we’ve had against us, not once has the referee been sent to watch it back againon the screen. If he had every decision would have been overturned and gone in our favour. I mean yesterday’s 3rd penalty, the referee clearly indicates he thought young got the ball. All VAR had to do was to tell him that he hadn’t and to have another look.
Robertson
Geoff Thomas
It's kind of sad/funny/pathetic actually how pretty much everyone in football outside the 'elite' is saying "the games gone, referee's are inept, VAR isn't fit for purpose, something must be done etc, etc, etc", then Forest actually do actually take a stand (or at least let's say, do some slightly ineffectual posturing) and everyone is either clutching their pearls, laughing their arses off, or turning puce with righeous indignation.
That's not to say I think we're innocent bystanders in all this, or this helps in any way our 'noble cause' to stay hitched to the Premier League gravy train, but jeez. Fed up of this servile, "don't rock the boat" attitude. If it just means they're going to relegate us even harder now it kind of proves the point, no?
That's not to say I think we're innocent bystanders in all this, or this helps in any way our 'noble cause' to stay hitched to the Premier League gravy train, but jeez. Fed up of this servile, "don't rock the boat" attitude. If it just means they're going to relegate us even harder now it kind of proves the point, no?
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