Will Swan, Swans off!

[Statto]

I've seen Swan on several occasions and despite his scoring record in those U23 games, I have yet to see anything that is at all indicative he can make the transition from that level to the bhlood and gut of the first team, be it in L2, L1, or the Championship. Our U23's produce good results at that level, but as I have said in other posts previously, there are not that many individuals who look to be able to step up. I hope Will has a greaty time at Mansfield and proves m wrong!

There are some who just dominate at age group level but don't ever translate that into first team at any real level, we've had countless strikers do this in the past - and very few for the first team. Swan is probably going to be another in that list given he's had a couple of shorter loans already. Not counting Bamford (who is probably the best recent striker to have come out of our academy, because he left at 18 and worked his way into his current position as a Chelsea player mainly) or Johnson (who is more of a winger/2nd striker than an out and out forward) in terms of record the best ones we have produced recently are probably Tyler Walker (who has done little since leaving us), Ben Brereton (who had glimpses in our first team but really a couple of years more at Blackburn before last season), then we might even be back at Marlon Harewood. There have been others who you thought might do it but never did.

The age group sides are much different because they're limited by age where first teams aren't, which is obvious really. But, clubs will usually take younger players out of the age group sides who are ready for the first team squad whilst still eligible for the U23s. Theoretically, last season, Spence, Johnson and Garner, all still under 23, could have played for the U23s, but were key first team players. So this lowers the pool available to the age group sides and older young players who aren't going to be in the first team picture are then playing more against kids. Will Swan is 21, nearly 22 now, and looks a bit older for his age, so if he's playing against a 17 year old centre back from somewhere else (who is probably good for his age to play U23s and is there because their U23 age centre back is in the team) it's literally men vs kids and he's likely to dominate physically simply because he's older. But put him up against an older experience defender in his late 20s, doesn't even have to be one of our first team defenders like McKenna or Worrall, maybe just someone at Mansfield, and he won't have that physical advantage as a head start.

Realistically age group sides are to allow developing players (both in terms of their physical strength and ability) to play against players at a similar level. By 21, a player shouldn't really be classed as a developing player and should be playing for a first team somewhere. Though there are of course notable exceptions it's unlikely a player will come out of nowhere at the age of 22/23 and turn into a top PL goalscorer and its also unlikely their core game will improve a lot from about 22/23 upwards, though experience will improve them slightly over the rest of their career.

You look at our Academy players who have made it and most had by 21. Worrall was in the first team picture under Montanier whilst he was still a teenager. Iacovitti who is about the same age was also and seems to have disappeared. Brennan Johnson is younger than Swan and has had a year in our team where he top scored and won promotion. James Garner is the same age and whilst you could say similar with him and Man U's first team he's done well the level below for 18 months on loan and their bar is higher anyway.

 

[Statto]

In my opinion, young players like Swan and his modern-day peers suffer from the absence of traditional, competetive reserve-team men's football, which produced countless players who went on to have good, productive careers with us, or elsewhere, in previous decades.

A season in the old Central League would have been enough to fully prepare Will for League One/Two football.

I agree with this. Though I think they are allowed some over age players in the U23s, the age limit for that side is too high.

It should really go to U21s and then have a reserve side so the likes of our older fringe players get match practice like Lolley, Cafu, Mighten (though he's still U21) and your up and coming kids have a different level where they're not playing against other kids.

So from last season's centre backs we have lost Figs, we still have Mbe Soh and Panzo who are U23 qualified still, and we have Cook, Worrall and McKenna who aren't, along with the two lads we brought in (who aren't, and are likely to be considered first choice or at least serious competition), 7 players for 3 positions. Whilst the quality and depth is there, 4 players can't play, and only 2 of them could get in another team without using an overage slot. So the others don't have the opportunity to play?

 

[Captain Sinister]

Alex Iacovetti is now as good as disappeared, playing for Ross County in the SPL.

 

[gamble]

In my opinion, young players like Swan and his modern-day peers suffer from the absence of traditional, competetive reserve-team men's football, which produced countless players who went on to have good, productive careers with us, or elsewhere, in previous decades.

A season in the old Central League would have been enough to fully prepare Will for League One/Two football.

You say that but it didn't do Worral, Yates, Johnson any harm and loaning to L1/2 at least gives them the opportunity of real competitive football.

 

[Statto]

Alex Iacovetti is now as good as disappeared, playing for Ross County in the SPL.

Yet he actually made first team apps that season ahead of Worrall, and was clearly seen as a better player. It's interesting sometimes who doesn't make it.

For a while Ethan Dekel was likely to progress into the team but they let him go without much of a fanfare and not getting close to the team, I think he went off to the US.

There was a big lad, target man type we had up front with Walker at the time Dougie was here who I think made some bench appearances but never did anything more at a time when we'd always need that type of player. And a few young lads who seemed to do OK under Calderwood who presumably Billy didn't want to keep hold of and effectively disappeared like Matt Thornhill (who I think also went to Scotland for a bit).

I still think the watershed is around 21. If you are a Forest academy player and haven't really made it into the first team picture by 21, you're not going to. Certainly in the years we were in the Championship (the bar is higher now of course) I can't think of many examples where someone has broken through older.

 

[Captain Sinister]

Yet he actually made first team apps that season ahead of Worrall, and was clearly seen as a better player. It's interesting sometimes who doesn't make it.

For a while Ethan Dekel was likely to progress into the team but they let him go without much of a fanfare and not getting close to the team, I think he went off to the US.

There was a big lad, target man type we had up front with Walker at the time Dougie was here who I think made some bench appearances but never did anything more at a time when we'd always need that type of player. And a few young lads who seemed to do OK under Calderwood who presumably Billy didn't want to keep hold of and effectively disappeared like Matt Thornhill (who I think also went to Scotland for a bit).

I still think the watershed is around 21. If you are a Forest academy player and haven't really made it into the first team picture by 21, you're not going to. Certainly in the years we were in the Championship (the bar is higher now of course) I can't think of many examples where someone has broken through older.

The Worral v Iacovetti thing, and Alex being preferred for a time reflected paucity of players in Iacovetti's position rather than a real comparison of class. Worral was behind established seior centrebacks.
Iacovetti was used as he played left back where there is a lack of supply in comparison.

 

[Otis Redding]

Alex Iacovetti is now as good as disappeared, playing for Ross County in the SPL.

In fairness to him, he's still making a living as a professional footballer.

Alex's parents own an Italian restaurant relatively close to where we live, and which we occasionally visit. His dad told me the last time we went that Alex is happy playing in Scotland at a decent level.

 

[Statto]

The Worral v Iacovetti thing, and Alex being preferred for a time reflected paucity of players in Iacovetti's position rather than a real comparison of class. Worral was behind established seior centrebacks.
Iacovetti was used as he played left back where there is a lack of supply in comparison.

I think JW was obviously definitely a centre back, as he still is now, back then but AI was more of a left-sided CB who could play LB but even then we had Armand Traore and Danny Fox at the club, though both of those were injured a lot/shite.

At CB we had Mills, Perquis, Lam, Mancienne, Hobbs and also Fox, whilst they were obviously senior centre backs, none of them were really any good. Well, Hobbs was a good player, but after his injuries was never fit enough to show that he was.

Worrall made 21 appearances that season, mainly under Warburton, so he did show that even at that age he was ahead of them.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

He did show that even at that age he was ahead of them.

He just asked PM to play and PM went 'ok'. Wouldn't have been in the first team picture otherwise. True story!

 

[cheapseats]

This is more or less my point. If he's good enough to be considered for the first team in the future, he needs playing time well above League Two to prove it at his age. If he's not good enough, let him go.

And that’s probably the stage we are at with him Greek. My guess is this is the make or break season for him. As has already been said Nigel knows forward play and he’ll have a good look at him and I am sure will be honest with the club on what he things Will can achieve.
My own personal view is he’s a L1 striker at best and if we stay in the prem I think he’ll be gone

 

[Statto]

He just asked PM to play and PM went 'ok'. Wouldn't have been in the first team picture otherwise. True story!

Yes it is.

But PM presumably hadn't looked into JW enough because as soon as he was put into the team it was clear even as a teenager he was better than the ones already playing.

Slightly ironic since IA is a few months younger (enough to be a school year younger) so in principle behind in the age group sides, but this was clearly where being left-sided was the advantage.

This is why your manager needs to be integrated with the squad at all levels. We have that now and to his credit Hughton did also give the young players a chance when he could, he was one of the reasons why we got Garner twice.

Partially I think it shows a lot for Joe's character that he was confident enough as a teen to knock on the manager's door and ask to play. And who can realistically blame him for that? If you're leaking goals as a defender you need to know why you're still not being considered. And the worst thing that can happen is that you're not in the team at the end of it, which you're not to begin with.

 

[cheapseats]

I think JW was obviously definitely a centre back, as he still is now, back then but AI was more of a left-sided CB who could play LB but even then we had Armand Traore and Danny Fox at the club, though both of those were injured a lot/shite.

At CB we had Mills, Perquis, Lam, Mancienne, Hobbs and also Fox, whilst they were obviously senior centre backs, none of them were really any good. Well, Hobbs was a good player, but after his injuries was never fit enough to show that he was.

Worrall made 21 appearances that season, mainly under Warburton, so he did show that even at that age he was ahead of them.

The issue of players being part centre back and part full back is a strange one for me. Given the role of the “modern” full back I can’t think of a position that is further away from CB in terms of requirements. How many CBs can really consistently beat a player down the wing, deliver a cross etc?. The only possible role is when you go to a back 4 and sit back to try and close a game out. That’s not Coops way.
So I’d be crapping myself if I was labelled as one of these hybrids. I can think of the last time we had a successful player doing those 2 roles….

 

[Frank Clark’s Tash]

The Worral v Iacovetti thing, and Alex being preferred for a time reflected paucity of players in Iacovetti's position rather than a real comparison of class. Worral was behind established seior centrebacks.
Iacovetti was used as he played left back where there is a lack of supply in comparison.

Are you saying... he could play left-back?

 

[Rockabilly]

In my opinion, young players like Swan and his modern-day peers suffer from the absence of traditional, competetive reserve-team men's football, which produced countless players who went on to have good, productive careers with us, or elsewhere, in previous decades.

A season in the old Central League would have been enough to fully prepare Will for League One/Two football.

This times a million.

 

[Statto]

The issue of players being part centre back and part full back is a strange one for me. Given the role of the “modern” full back I can’t think of a position that is further away from CB in terms of requirements. How many CBs can really consistently beat a player down the wing, deliver a cross etc?. The only possible role is when you go to a back 4 and sit back to try and close a game out. That’s not Coops way.
So I’d be crapping myself if I was labelled as one of these hybrids. I can think of the last time we had a successful player doing those 2 roles….

FB has always been an attacking role really. Psycho used to get up a fair amount. And though they were probably really wing backs, the Neville brothers, Graeme Le Saux etc were decent attackers in the 90s. I think you don't and never really have had effective top level FBs who are basically stoppers. They're basically overlapping wingers, same as that wingers are first-line defenders out wide, the roles are quite similar in terms of skill a player needs.

Quite often you'd get in the past full backs playing more at CB later in their careers, Fox did this, think Psycho had spells at CB later on as well.

But I think it's been said that Panzo can cover full back and also the new French CB can play RB so we do still have this around. And with Spence going forward most of last season almost as a winger we had McKenna and Worrall basically playing in the FB positions and getting forward a lot of the time too. But you wouldn't really speak of either of them as full backs.

Off the top of my head I can't really think of many in the top division who are CBs and yet can play FB as well as a specialist FB, like Colback last season, they would be good as cover but not really cover the attacking side of the position.

 

[Tobias]

For a while Ethan Dekel was likely to progress into the team but they let him go without much of a fanfare and not getting close to the team, I think he went off to the US.

Dekel now plays for Gamecocks in South Carolina.

 

[cheapseats]

You say that but it didn't do Worral, Yates, Johnson any harm and loaning to L1/2 at least gives them the opportunity of real competitive football.I

FB has always been an attacking role really. Psycho used to get up a fair amount. And though they were probably really wing backs, the Neville brothers, Graeme Le Saux etc were decent attackers in the 90s. I think you don't and never really have had effective top level FBs who are basically stoppers. They're basically overlapping wingers, same as that wingers are first-line defenders out wide, the roles are quite similar in terms of skill a player needs.

Quite often you'd get in the past full backs playing more at CB later in their careers, Fox did this, think Psycho had spells at CB later on as well.

But I think it's been said that Panzo can cover full back and also the new French CB can play RB so we do still have this around. And with Spence going forward most of last season almost as a winger we had McKenna and Worrall basically playing in the FB positions and getting forward a lot of the time too. But you wouldn't really speak of either of them as full backs.

Off the top of my head I can't really think of many in the top division who are CBs and yet can play FB as well as a specialist FB, like Colback last season, they would be good as cover but not really cover the attacking side of the position.

You say that but it didn't do Worral, Yates, Johnson any harm and loaning to L1/2 at least gives them the opportunity of real competitive football.

Its funny because it wasn't long ago that the "hive view" on this forum was that loans were unnecessary for many of these players. in particular we were talking about Mighten, who in my opinion has been absolutely crying out for a loan over the last few years.....

 

[Statto]

Its funny because it wasn't long ago that the "hive view" on this forum was that loans were unnecessary for many of these players. in particular we were talking about Mighten, who in my opinion has been absolutely crying out for a loan over the last few years.....

Mostly the context with Mighten was because he had already made an impact at first team level when he had played for us, certainly there was an argument that the best thing for his development was to actually be in our first team playing matches, rather than being loaned out to another CH side to play matches and help another side we're competing with, or to loan out to L1 as he was considered better than that.

I think this mainly came out of the Hughton era when we had Mighten, Lolley, Ameobi and Knockaert as the first team wingers. This was when Lolley was struggling, Ameobi was his usual unpredictable, and Knockaert for all the fanfare and his past would run around, lose the ball and get mardy all the time without actually creating anything of note. Last season the bar ended up a bit higher and of course we didn't know how Johnson was going to do when he came back, and that we'd end up doing so well. And with the new system we play out and out wingers like Mighten a bit less so it's whether he can adapt to more of an inside-forward role like Johnson plays...

Of course, he still has bags of potential - but at his age and at that level the argument was that he was better playing first team for us than being loaned out to L1. In the PL this clearly isn't relevant any more and he really needs a loan to a Championship side for this season.

But mostly up until last season when he did play he made an impact. Millwall when he latched onto that hoof from Mbe Soh and scored. He did reasonably well in that Chelsea FA cup game too when we played a load of reserves/kids under Sabri. And there was that Swansea game in lockdown under Sabri when he came on, a Swansea player basically assaulted him on the pitch and got sent off for it... showed he was potentially ready for a starting place and really only that would show if he was going to be good enough.

I suppose we could have loaned him to Ipswich or something but that doesn't show what he could do at the level we're at, and the attributes are different in lower league games anyway, which are a lot more physical and direct. All this endless loaning out hasn't really done Luke Matheson a lot of good, another example of a player who might have been better staying where he was and playing as opposed to going into the development sides at a big club and getting odd spells at clubs for a few months (he finished last season loaned to Scunthorpe who got relegated out of the league).

 

[Otis Redding]

This times a million.

Furthermore Gary, I go back to the old Nottingham Thursday League days when I turned out for the City & Sherwood Hospitals side for a season (I qualified to play because I worked there on construction job on a long-term contract) against teams like Notts Police, Players, Raleigh and Nottingham Fire Brigade amongst others and, significantly, Forest Colts, which was essentially represented by a combination of club apprentices and first-year professionals and the occasional trialist.

That was a unique grounding for those young lads, playing against a mixture of ex-non-league players and wannabes. To say it provided a tough, robust test for them is an understatement.

Would your dad have had any involvement with that competition during his time at the CG?

 

[Strummer]

Its funny because it wasn't long ago that the "hive view" on this forum was that loans were unnecessary for many of these players. in particular we were talking about Mighten, who in my opinion has been absolutely crying out for a loan over the last few years.....

You are doing the Forum a disservice; we don’t really do „hive views“ here - there are other forums for that - instead, we offer the metaphorical equivalent of absolute bollocks instead?

 

[Gyros Peter]

Decent loan to learn from the master.

Regarding his age/development, I think it's important the club provide pathways to first team football for our young players, and after some 'real' football we'll know more about the level Swan might be suitable for...

Given what I've seen and his Ipswich loan, which I think came a little too early in fairness, in Swan's case I think it's unlikely at this point we'll see too much more of him for us. I hope he does well at the stags, and, if he isn't at our level moving forward, that he can forge a decent career for himself, in the same way someone like Jorge Grant has. It's good for the academy ultimately.

 

[cheapseats]

You are doing the Forum a disservice; we don’t really do „hive views“ here - there are other forums for that - instead, we offer the metaphorical equivalent of absolute bollocks instead?

 

[cheapseats]

Mostly the context with Mighten was because he had already made an impact at first team level when he had played for us, certainly there was an argument that the best thing for his development was to actually be in our first team playing matches, rather than being loaned out to another CH side to play matches and help another side we're competing with, or to loan out to L1 as he was considered better than that.

I think this mainly came out of the Hughton era when we had Mighten, Lolley, Ameobi and Knockaert as the first team wingers. This was when Lolley was struggling, Ameobi was his usual unpredictable, and Knockaert for all the fanfare and his past would run around, lose the ball and get mardy all the time without actually creating anything of note. Last season the bar ended up a bit higher and of course we didn't know how Johnson was going to do when he came back, and that we'd end up doing so well. And with the new system we play out and out wingers like Mighten a bit less so it's whether he can adapt to more of an inside-forward role like Johnson plays...

Of course, he still has bags of potential - but at his age and at that level the argument was that he was better playing first team for us than being loaned out to L1. In the PL this clearly isn't relevant any more and he really needs a loan to a Championship side for this season.

But mostly up until last season when he did play he made an impact. Millwall when he latched onto that hoof from Mbe Soh and scored. He did reasonably well in that Chelsea FA cup game too when we played a load of reserves/kids under Sabri. And there was that Swansea game in lockdown under Sabri when he came on, a Swansea player basically assaulted him on the pitch and got sent off for it... showed he was potentially ready for a starting place and really only that would show if he was going to be good enough.

I suppose we could have loaned him to Ipswich or something but that doesn't show what he could do at the level we're at, and the attributes are different in lower league games anyway, which are a lot more physical and direct. All this endless loaning out hasn't really done Luke Matheson a lot of good, another example of a player who might have been better staying where he was and playing as opposed to going into the development sides at a big club and getting odd spells at clubs for a few months (he finished last season loaned to Scunthorpe who got relegated out of the league).

I get that Stats, but I would simply counter that I think that logic was wrong (and has proved to be wrong) and as such we did Alex a disservice, because (for me) he is going into this season in last chance saloon for Forest having entered the fray as a real prospect and his biggest problem is hes not had a chance to work out how he plays and utilises his "weapons" in proper mens football.
I'm afraid my money is on him not making it with us now and ending up at a L1 or average champ side-no shame but a bit of a disappointment based on where we hoped he'd be.
Should say I hope I'm wrong on that...

 

[Any Time Now]

I get that Stats, but I would simply counter that I think that logic was wrong (and has proved to be wrong) and as such we did Alex a disservice, because (for me) he is going into this season in last chance saloon for Forest having entered the fray as a real prospect and his biggest problem is hes not had a chance to work out how he plays and utilises his "weapons" in proper mens football.
I'm afraid my money is on him not making it with us now and ending up at a L1 or average champ side-no shame but a bit of a disappointment based on where we hoped he'd be.
Should say I hope I'm wrong on that...

Mighten isn't even 21 until next April, if we had plenty of squad depth this season there's a higher chance he'd be off on loan to a championship side with guaranteed minutes all season. Still not completely out the realms of possibility depending on what players we manage to bring in, or possibly even a January loan move

Personally I think he'll be kept around, Cooper is a big fan of his and seems invested in his development. One of Coopers strengths is his ability to work with young talent and if he believes he can work with him and nurture him into a squad player who's able to play a part then we have to trust him, after all our squad depth is pretty light

Time is definitely on Mightens side, he could go on loan the season after next and return still being only 22. To put it into perspective Keinan Davis turns 25 at the start of next year

 

[Statto]

I get that Stats, but I would simply counter that I think that logic was wrong (and has proved to be wrong) and as such we did Alex a disservice, because (for me) he is going into this season in last chance saloon for Forest having entered the fray as a real prospect and his biggest problem is hes not had a chance to work out how he plays and utilises his "weapons" in proper mens football.
I'm afraid my money is on him not making it with us now and ending up at a L1 or average champ side-no shame but a bit of a disappointment based on where we hoped he'd be.
Should say I hope I'm wrong on that...

Don't forget Alex has only just turned 20. Seems a bit odd considering he's been around the first team for a few years now.

And it's experience of playing matches which will get him to show how he can use his considerable talents, decision making is a key part of most top players...