Standard of Referees

[Flaggers]

Key Match Incidents Panel: Everton wrongly denied penalty in Arsenal defeat

Everton should have been awarded a penalty in their 1-0 defeat to Arsenal, the Premier League's Key Match Incidents Panel has said.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is how mental refs, VAR and the implementation is. So they said the Everton penalty should have been given. But only 3 of the 5 man panel said it should so presumably 2 of the 5 didn’t actually think it was a penalty. So those two would have given no penalty and got the decision wrong according to the panel. So what are they doing sitting in a panel?? But they also decided VAR was wrong not to intervene, even though 2 of their panel wouldn’t have given it as a penalty even after watching it presumably 100 times from 10 different angles in a warm studio.

Then on to the Chelsea Newcastle one. 3 of the panel of 5 said it should have been a penalty. But they decided the VAR was right not to intervene. How can it be right not to intervene when you panel decided it was a penalty? Again 2 of their panel didn’t think that was a penalty. But if the decision is wrong then how can it not meet the threshold to intervene? Honestly the whole system is absolutely f**ked!!

Also how are some of the panel saying that was just a robust shoulder charge when he was totally cleaned out?

But seriously what a confusing joke. Don’t even try and justify your shit decisions you utter muppets.

It's utterly ridiculous

 

[Flaggers]

The thing is they need help to an extent. But penalty decisions are often subjective as you see from these panels. On here we all see the same challenge and half of us think it is, half or a significant amount don’t think it’s a foul. Ex players argue over whether it is or isn’t, these panels are split. So for me these decisions shouldn’t be getting scrutinised anyway unless challenged by the team maybe. The approach is also too inconsistent as some weeks they will look at every minor incident and other weeks they barely look at anything. Some weeks they look for ages other weeks barely a glance. Over the years the absolute glaring errors are few and far between. Low enough that a couple of challenges per game would be enough for a team.

VAR should only intervene if a major off the ball Violent conduct has happened and they should maybe view a goal as the celebrations happened to see if there is a glaring offside. But no drawing lines, just is it obviously offside or not with the benefit of a couple of views from the best angle and the shot paused momentarily as the ball is played.

Basically VAR should be in the background for major errors not just constantly involved and highly inconsistent. This ‘met the threshold’ is a nonsense and adds another layer of subjectiveness as to it. If you think it is a foul and it hasn’t been given then the ref needs to look again. How can there be any confusion?

Subjective decisions are there to benefit some teams and not others.

Also - there's a list every season of "teams who've benefitted/been had over the most by VAR" - that's a complete smokescreen.

The table you WANT is "where there is a dubious decision, which teams get the ON-FIELD decision that benefits them?"

 

[GOBIAS]

Subjective decisions are there to benefit some teams and not others.

Also - there's a list every season of "teams who've benefitted/been had over the most by VAR" - that's a complete smokescreen.

The table you WANT is "where there is a dubious decision, which teams get the ON-FIELD decision that benefits them?"

If you genuinely wanted to make decisions more accurate they’d be trying to remove subjectivity, but they have added extra subjectivity. A foul is always going to be subjective. But they have made it even more complicated (or easy to hide behind bad decisions) by having the threshold for whether they can get involved or not, a subjectivity around whether a decision can be referred back to the ref and the fact some var teams seem to go in on everything and some seem to be asleep is another layer.

 

[Apollo11]

As long as a decision is subjective VAR should be scrapped.

Bring it back when the rules are black and white.

Then it will also be handy for the new offside rule they are trying to push.

 

[Flaggers]

As long as a decision is subjective VAR should be scrapped.

Bring it back when the rules are black and white.

Then it will also be handy for the new offside rule they are trying to push.

View attachment 56021

The issue with offside video decisions at the moment is the "edge" cases - a toenail, or the last quarter inch of the corner of the shoulder being beyond the other player.

All Wenger's idea will do is MOVE THE POSITION OF THE EDGE CASES. It won't make anything better, it will just change the position of where it is ridiculous.

 

[Erik]

The issue with offside video decisions at the moment is the "edge" cases - a toenail, or the last quarter inch of the corner of the shoulder being beyond the other player.

All Wenger's idea will do is MOVE THE POSITION OF THE EDGE CASES. It won't make anything better, it will just change the position of where it is ridiculous.

It's not VAR. It's the implementation of it, or non implementation.
Scrap it for subjective calls and leave them with the referee until they can come up with a good way of making it work.
Use it for off ball incidents and for line decisions, and for line decisions bring in a margin for error like cricket does with 'umpires call' and remove the crutch referees are using too often and empower them at the same time.

 

[ubik]

What annoys me is that VAR could easily spot the Newcastle player (Tonali?) hooking his leg round Neco's leg to draw a 'foul' and get our player booked. Williams refused to bite and was still penalised. VAR should be able to rescind the yellow, give Forest a drop ball from the site of the non-foul, and prompt the ref to book Tonali.

 

[PynchonForest]

The thing is they need help to an extent. But penalty decisions are often subjective as you see from these panels. On here we all see the same challenge and half of us think it is, half or a significant amount don’t think it’s a foul. Ex players argue over whether it is or isn’t, these panels are split. So for me these decisions shouldn’t be getting scrutinised anyway unless challenged by the team maybe. The approach is also too inconsistent as some weeks they will look at every minor incident and other weeks they barely look at anything. Some weeks they look for ages other weeks barely a glance. Over the years the absolute glaring errors are few and far between. Low enough that a couple of challenges per game would be enough for a team.

VAR should only intervene if a major off the ball Violent conduct has happened and they should maybe view a goal as the celebrations happened to see if there is a glaring offside. But no drawing lines, just is it obviously offside or not with the benefit of a couple of views from the best angle and the shot paused momentarily as the ball is played.

Basically VAR should be in the background for major errors not just constantly involved and highly inconsistent. This ‘met the threshold’ is a nonsense and adds another layer of subjectiveness as to it. If you think it is a foul and it hasn’t been given then the ref needs to look again. How can there be any confusion?

I know I've addressed this dynamic before but what the hell. One big problem with how fans perceive referees is you visualize most decisions as black and white. I would kindly suggest most are grey, and that is the way it will always be, and therein lies a big part of the problem with how referees are perceived. There will never be a "consistency" as long as humans are referees. Your earlier examples of the panel split on foul/no foul etc articulates this seamlessly. Easy fouls are ones everyone agrees on, except the village idiot. But whether to call or not call certain fouls at certain points in time is, in that specific moment, never a simple case of "zero" or "one". Two days ago I blew an advantage early in the game. The ball took a weird bounce and what seemed like an easy foul to call suddenly became an error. And I told the player. Fortunately he was nice and told me not to worry about it. Five minutes later a player got levelled, easy foul to call, yellow card the guy and everyone is happy, but I saw the opp and the guy who received the ball was the only other player who did, as everyone basically switched off expecting the whistle. He took a touch and buried it. The defending team complained because "I should have blown my whistle". Sigh. Moments in games are dynamic and reacting to all the little blips and schisms in any game (even the very highest level ones) is not an easy thing to do.

 

[ubik]

Given that most people agree that Dias should have got a second yellow a minute into the second half, VAR should also be able to intervene there. Replays show the trip was intentional but contrived to look accidental, so even worse.

 

[GOBIAS]

I know I've addressed this dynamic before but what the hell. One big problem with how fans perceive referees is you visualize most decisions as black and white. I would kindly suggest most are grey, and that is the way it will always be, and therein lies a big part of the problem with how referees are perceived. There will never be a "consistency" as long as humans are referees. Your earlier examples of the panel split on foul/no foul etc articulates this seamlessly. Easy fouls are ones everyone agrees on, except the village idiot. But whether to call or not call certain fouls at certain points in time is, in that specific moment, never a simple case of "zero" or "one". Two days ago I blew an advantage early in the game. The ball took a weird bounce and what seemed like an easy foul to call suddenly became an error. And I told the player. Fortunately he was nice and told me not to worry about it. Five minutes later a player got levelled, easy foul to call, yellow card the guy and everyone is happy, but I saw the opp and the guy who received the ball was the only other player who did, as everyone basically switched off expecting the whistle. He took a touch and buried it. The defending team complained because "I should have blown my whistle". Sigh. Moments in games are dynamic and reacting to all the little blips and schisms in any game (even the very highest level ones) is not an easy thing to do.

This is what I’m saying though. It is clear that so many decisions are subjective, a panel of refs, ex players, fans will all have differing opinions on some fouls.

So from day one I never thought VAR should be involved in this. VAR should only be there to stop absolutely outrageous injustices which might only happen to a club a couple of times a season. A lot of the clap trap we are kicking off about nowadays isn’t a major injustice, it is often some minor infringement that is often given that we haven’t got. The whole farce has been caused by bad VAR interference.

I want the tech to be there to assist refs, but not taking over the game and changing it in a terrible way. I think I’m on the refs side here.

 

[Redofheaven2]

I know I've addressed this dynamic before but what the hell. One big problem with how fans perceive referees is you visualize most decisions as black and white. I would kindly suggest most are grey, and that is the way it will always be, and therein lies a big part of the problem with how referees are perceived. There will never be a "consistency" as long as humans are referees. Your earlier examples of the panel split on foul/no foul etc articulates this seamlessly. Easy fouls are ones everyone agrees on, except the village idiot. But whether to call or not call certain fouls at certain points in time is, in that specific moment, never a simple case of "zero" or "one". Two days ago I blew an advantage early in the game. The ball took a weird bounce and what seemed like an easy foul to call suddenly became an error. And I told the player. Fortunately he was nice and told me not to worry about it. Five minutes later a player got levelled, easy foul to call, yellow card the guy and everyone is happy, but I saw the opp and the guy who received the ball was the only other player who did, as everyone basically switched off expecting the whistle. He took a touch and buried it. The defending team complained because "I should have blown my whistle". Sigh. Moments in games are dynamic and reacting to all the little blips and schisms in any game (even the very highest level ones) is not an easy thing to do.

Yes but it seems like the refs want decisions to be subjective - where possible why not make them black and white to remove the grey areas? For example holding of opposition players is a foul but now we have the subjectivity of “how long was he held for”.

 

[Red Ray's Redlist]

I know I've addressed this dynamic before but what the hell. One big problem with how fans perceive referees is you visualize most decisions as black and white. I would kindly suggest most are grey, and that is the way it will always be, and therein lies a big part of the problem with how referees are perceived. There will never be a "consistency" as long as humans are referees. Your earlier examples of the panel split on foul/no foul etc articulates this seamlessly. Easy fouls are ones everyone agrees on, except the village idiot. But whether to call or not call certain fouls at certain points in time is, in that specific moment, never a simple case of "zero" or "one". Two days ago I blew an advantage early in the game. The ball took a weird bounce and what seemed like an easy foul to call suddenly became an error. And I told the player. Fortunately he was nice and told me not to worry about it. Five minutes later a player got levelled, easy foul to call, yellow card the guy and everyone is happy, but I saw the opp and the guy who received the ball was the only other player who did, as everyone basically switched off expecting the whistle. He took a touch and buried it. The defending team complained because "I should have blown my whistle". Sigh. Moments in games are dynamic and reacting to all the little blips and schisms in any game (even the very highest level ones) is not an easy thing to do.

Totally agree with the sentiment.

My issue is that certain refs, not mentioning any names Anthony Taylor, only seem to give these subjective calls one way.

Let's call these grey area's 50:50 calls.
Statistically you'd expect them to be evenly split, but with some refs that is obviously not the case. If that is true then some other factor must be in play. What that is nobody is likely to know beyond the refs themselves.

PGMO should be able to monitor the way these decisions are distributed, but if they do so they aren't publicising the fact. That seems odd to me because if they did it would shut down a lot of the complaints about bias or corruption. Which then begs the question why not?

 

[valspoodle]

I agree with the panel. If we are all agreed that pretty much all football decisions are subjective, simply adding three more eyes which will also give a subjective opinion is pointless. So unless some brilliant mind can sort out an answer, we need to keep VAR for the outrageous decisions like the Boly yellow card, which, oddly, is one of those which are barred to VAR.

Nuts.

 

[PynchonForest]

This is what I’m saying though. It is clear that so many decisions are subjective, a panel of refs, ex players, fans will all have differing opinions on some fouls.

So from day one I never thought VAR should be involved in this. VAR should only be there to stop absolutely outrageous injustices which might only happen to a club a couple of times a season. A lot of the clap trap we are kicking off about nowadays isn’t a major injustice, it is often some minor infringement that is often given that we haven’t got. The whole farce has been caused by bad VAR interference.

I want the tech to be there to assist refs, but not taking over the game and changing it in a terrible way. I think I’m on the refs side here.

Yeah, that's fair. I don't like VAR. From day one I thought the requests should be from the team, three a game. If you get it right you still have three kicks at the can. However, let's not forget VAR does get an awful lot of things correct. The frustrating part is when the human element comes into play and obvious calls are not given, or a ref is not sent to the screen when they should be. But, again, humans involved in any process will result in errors. I can certainly see a point in time, not that far down the road, where robots are used as referees.

 

[PynchonForest]

Yes but it seems like the refs want decisions to be subjective - where possible why not make them black and white to remove the grey areas? For example holding of opposition players is a foul but now we have the subjectivity of “how long was he held for”.

It would change the game, quite dramatically, especially in England, if this was the case. It would not work without completely and utterly changing how the players played.

If you want to watch this sport without physical contact, watch futsal. It's ultra high skill, and there is no physical contact allowed, basically. I like futsal, but it's not for me precisely because of the physical contact aspect. So I completely reject any attempt to get rid of grey areas. Striving for perfection is fine. Thinking it is achievable is folly, imho.

 

[PynchonForest]

And let me make one thing clear, Arsene Wenger is a HUGE culprit in all this rule books effing around. He always hated referees, and he should have absolutely nothing to do with law changes. As long as he has the big hat things will not be as efficient as they should be.

 

[tjhooker]

Did anyone see the ref in the Vancouver White Caps game blatantly cheating??

 

[Statto]

Did anyone see the ref in the Vancouver White Caps game blatantly cheating??

Does he have an account on here?

 

[PynchonForest]

Did anyone see the ref in the Vancouver White Caps game blatantly cheating??

You mean the final? Ref was from Calgary, Drew Fischer.

 

[siforest65]

Thoughts on today’s ref?

I’m not hearing anything negative and we were up against a team of rollers and divers

 

[PK12]

Thoughts on today’s ref?

I’m not hearing anything negative and we were up against a team of rollers and divers

You could argue he should have flashed a yellow card or two for the dives but at least he generally didn't award them the free kicks (others may disagree). He seemed to get most things right and wasn't a factor at all in the defeat.

My view, anyway.

 

[GregorRobertson]

Thoughts on today’s ref?

I’m not hearing anything negative and we were up against a team of rollers and divers

I think he was pretty good and we can have no complaints. Hasn’t stopped a bunch of dipshits on social media posting stuff like “are Forest going to cry to PGMOL about the ref again ”. Morons.

 

[ubik]

Thoughts on today’s ref?

I’m not hearing anything negative and we were up against a team of rollers and divers

Villa fans will be saying he let us get away with murder, but I saw most of it as rolling and diving.

 

[gedlingred]

Thoughts on today’s ref?

I’m not hearing anything negative and we were up against a team of rollers and divers

Perhaps he could have booked a few for rolling and diving.

 

[Notcher]

Thoughts on today’s ref?

I’m not hearing anything negative and we were up against a team of rollers and divers

Apart from not carding every cheating twat that dived, he was probably the best ref so far this season.