Jorge Grant

[cheapseats]

Grant went to Lincoln July 2019. I'm not sure how loaning him out effects that mate? Young players need loans to develop. Doesn't mean that they're not fancied. Ultimately the decision to sell 2019 was the key moment, and that was very much Pea-face's tenure.

For an undisclosed fee to a club who's record signing was £100k in 2018 let's not forget. SO we'd have got f*** all for him too.

It's not about the player and whether he would or wouldn't make it. It's about the fact that Vrentroz was discarding players with potential already here and on a low wage, for ones which cost far, far more both to bring and keep here.

It's a balance between all approaches, and our has been f***ing awful.

None of us know how the various youngsters we've discarded would have faired so in a sense Alf, your position is the easiest in the world to defend (and wash and repeat) because its evidence less and appeals to the tremendous frustration we all feel watching our great club is taken En mass recruitment has been awful, full stop. There are, of course nuances in there and its my instinct that Jorge Grant would have struggled to nail down a first team spot and at the same time develop, as he needed to do at Forest so I don't think he was a wasteful discard like some other players, but of course I could be wrong....Ultimately I'm glad the kid has made a living and there always the danger that we focus on the success like Matty Cash rather than the ones that bomb without a trace of which there are 10 to every one of him...

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

None of us know how the various youngsters we've discarded would have faired so in a sense Alf, your position is the easiest in the world to defend (and wash and repeat) because its evidence less and appeals to the tremendous frustration we all feel watching our great club is taken En mass recruitment has been awful, full stop. There are, of course nuances in there and its my instinct that Jorge Grant would have struggled to nail down a first team spot and at the same time develop, as he needed to do at Forest so I don't think he was a wasteful discard like some other players, but of course I could be wrong....Ultimately I'm glad the kid has made a living and there always the danger that we focus on the success like Matty Cash rather than the ones that bomb without a trace of which there are 10 to every one of him...

If Cash had have gone a year earlier, some people on here would have been saying "no-one was to know he was gonna be a Prem player. All he did was fall over".

That's my whole point. You give young, cheap academy players time to prove themselves first before getting rid. Instead of giving that time & money to random loans who, even if they do prove themselves, go back to their parent club for them to benefit.

There was absolutely no benefit to the club in selling Grant for threpance, just to accommodate a shed load of more expensive failures.

As I said earlier, 1 year of Carvalho buys 21 years worth of Grants time. I think the sensible investment is to just give Grant 4-5 years and see what happens. Esp considering how Cash, Worrall, Brereton etc. have got on

 

[Rzar]

Lol at "genuine goal-scoring ability" for Carvalho. 0 goals in 32 this season

Lol at confidence too for that matter, Carvalho's been a fragile princess until now.

Also:

Grant fee = £0, Grant rumoured Wage currently = 3k/wk = £156k/year

Carvalho fee = £13.2m, Carvalho rumoured Wage = £15k/wk = £3.42m/year



1 year of Carvlaho buys you 21 years of Grant.


You have exactly right there the failed logic of this club, and why Vrentroz was putting us in such a mess.

You have serious problems

 

[Danga]

How many managers looked at Grant while he was here, said no he wasn't for me and then sent out on loan?

But this is Ventroz's fault? So Ventroz is happy to back the manager signing players (according to Alf) on multiple times what Grant earns but isn't prepared to keep Grant when he is costing nowt.

There is some f***ing mental gymnastics going off here...

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

How many managers looked at Grant while he was here, said no he wasn't for me and then sent out on loan?

But this is Ventroz's fault? So Ventroz is happy to back the manager signing players (according to Alf) on multiple times what Grant earns but isn't prepared to keep Grant when he is costing nowt.

There is some f***ing mental gymnastics going off here...

As I said earlier, a loan isn't a sale.

Does that mean that Ferguson didn't fancy Beckham when he loaned him out to Preston?

And you have got to be f***ing outright blind not to have clocked on that Vrentroz has been running the show, and the sales, for years. Largely regardless of who the manager/coach fancies by now. Lamouchi was nothing but a yes-man when it came to transfers. Probably why he employed a coach in the first place.

Hell Vrentroz was telling AK what team to pick in an attempt to manipulate player sales. You think he was leaving the say on further player sales under MON & Lamouchi down to the managers?

 

[Danga]

We are talking about a lad who was consistently loaned out, at league 2 level, till he was 24 years old. Then on top of that his last two loan spells, one at Luton which was cut short and one at Stags where he didn't pull up any trees. This is an entirely different situation to loaning out a Brennan Johnson or an Ollie Burke who were young players getting their first tastes of first team football in the lower leagues.

It also bares no relevance to United loaning out a 18/19 year old David Beckham to get his first taste of first team football.

As for the Ventroz fluff, there might be some truth in that, I suspect a lot of it has been made up in your head too. But nobody is going to convince you otherwise, so there is zero point in going in to it.

And good luck to Grant, hope he does well at Posh.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

We are talking about a lad who was consistently loaned out, at league 2 level, till he was 24 years old. Then on top of that his last two loan spells, one at Luton which was cut short and one at Stags where he didn't pull up any trees. This is an entirely different situation to loaning out a Brennan Johnson or an Ollie Burke who were young players getting their first tastes of first team football in the lower leagues.

It also bares no relevance to United loaning out a 18/19 year old David Beckham to get his first taste of first team football.

As for the Ventroz fluff, there might be some truth in that, I suspect a lot of it has been made up in your head too. But nobody is going to convince you otherwise, so there is zero point in going in to it.

And good luck to Grant, hope he does well at Posh.

"A lot of it has been made up in your head" Yeah, I remember making this bit up and getting Daniel Taylor to print it in the Athletic........


Karanka was emotionally drained. He had been unhappy for some time. His wife, Ana, had stopped going to games because she did not want to see the people he blamed for making him so miserable. One person in particular: chief executive Ioannis Vrentzos.

Karanka started to feel under pressure from Vrentzos to pick certain players.Key figures have told The Athletic that Karanka felt there was interference from above on team selection and that he worked for months in the belief that, if he did not do as they wanted, his job was increasingly in danger. It is understood Forest say the allegations of interference are incorrect and unfair.

Forest’s hierarchy wanted Appiah to be involved with the first-team squad because the club intended to sell the player and thought it would bump up his valuation.

Karanka saw it differently. Appiah was talented but raw and Karanka had considerable doubts about whether a boy of 17 was ready for the Championship.


All Vrentroz has done since being here is try to flog our young talent for a quick buck, and he's never given any manager room to dictate puchases & sales fully.

 

[Danga]

Not going in to the Daniel Taylor conversation, testaments from disgruntled ex-employees does nothing for me personally. Everything what Taylor has to offer there is hearsay.

Also at the same time, Karanka went and signed 10+ players in a January transfer window, half of them didn't pan out, it could easily been viewed that Ventroz and senior management saw a talented player in Appiah getting his chances limited by a load of journeymen guff that Karanka insisted on.

And if you think any manager in any of the top leagues across Europe has full autonomy of the ins and outs at a football club, you are about 25 years out of date. The restructure this summer is exactly the opposite of giving Hughton full autonomy over transfers.

Like I say, I find the mental gymnastics that Ventroz pushed Grant out the club to claw back a relatively low sum and get his relatively low wages off the books 'just because' tough to believe.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Not going in to the Daniel Taylor conversation, testaments from disgruntled ex-employees does nothing for me personally. Everything what Taylor has to offer there is hearsay.

Also at the same time, Karanka went and signed 10+ players in a January transfer window, half of them didn't pan out, it could easily been viewed that Ventroz and senior management saw a talented player in Appiah getting his chances limited by a load of journeymen guff that Karanka insisted on.

And if you think any manager in any of the top leagues across Europe has full autonomy of the ins and outs at a football club, you are about 25 years out of date. The restructure this summer is exactly the opposite of giving Hughton full autonomy over transfers.

Like I say, I find the mental gymnastics that Ventroz pushed Grant out the club to claw back a relatively low sum and get his relatively low wages off the books 'just because' tough to believe.

You're making stuff up in your own head chap. I've never said Vrentroz wanted his low wages off the books. I've said he was dictating sales for the majority of his time here.

Between that, the ease at which you dismiss Taylors article, and your own speculation about AK's operational methods your the one who's nearer to creating their own fabricated version of events here.

Whereas I look at what people have said & stated, and decide from there. Yeah there's an element of judgement in that, but we're not robots are we?

That first AK window is unclear sure, but after that I think all the evidence points towards Vrentroz dictating player purchases & sales to a large degree until Hughton arrived. I mean, why else would we employ a coach for starters?

 

[Danga]

You're making stuff up in your own head. I've never said Vrentroz wanted his low wages off the books. I've said he was dictating sales for the majority of his time here.

Well why was he so keen to get Grant out of the club like you are alluding too? That is why I stated his low value and low wages. It makes absolutely no sense from a financial perspective to sell Grant. So if that isn't the reason, the only other is that he wasn't good enough, which you are also saying isn't true. So which is it? Or is it neither and Ventroz just wanted to sell him for shits and giggles?

Between that, the ease at which you dismiss Taylors article, and your own speculation about AK's operational methods your the one who's nearer to creating their own fabricated version of events here.

I have said before I don't completely dismiss what Taylor writes, but I put it in to context. He is getting information from disgruntled ex-employee's, who'd have thought they would have crosses to bare? Also notice how nobody is prepared to put their names to any of his articles? If this was any other journalist other than DT, we would all scoff at the complete hearsay that it is. And that isn't me saying Ventroz is whiter than white, I don't doubt the fact he has rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way and also done a poor job of building a competitive championship squad.

Whereas I look at what people have said & stated, and decide from there.

No Alf, you decide to believe whatever fits your agenda/narrative you are going off this week.

That first AK window is unclear sure, but after that I think all the evidence points towards Vrentroz dictating player purchases & sales to a large degree until Hughton arrived. I mean, why else would we employ a coach for starters?

Go on then, point to all the signings and sales of key players that are clearly made by Ventroz.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Ugggh. Split posts. You win

Feel free to believe what you want Gandalf. Right back to McClaren being a great manager, you've always been good at that

After years of trying to point out to some of you that our recruitment was poor, I'm not going to waste time spending several more years trying to educate you further.

 

[Danga]

Likewise, get back to what you're good at, making amusing meme's on paint and posting boaderline child porn.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Likewise, get back to what you're good at, making amusing meme's on paint and posting boaderline child porn.

I wouldn't know, I don't look at child porn. But thanks for the expert appraisal.

 

[Carlos]

Anyone got any plans for the weekend?

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Anyone got any plans for the weekend?

Get on MS paint, post some porn

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

Maybe try combining those two things?

Can we have a running cartoon? Episode 1: Billy Davies and the skinny ginger slag?

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Maybe try combining those two things?

Can we have a running cartoon? Episode 1: Billy Davies and the skinny ginger slag?

Och aye!!

I know she looks overage, but I actually took the picture at a school Halloween do, whilst shouting homophobic, xenophobic and racial slurs at everyone.

 

[Otis Redding]

Ultimately, Grant was 24 when he left. Simply hanging-on to him in the hope of a manager finally giving him the opportunity to nail-down a regular first-team place would have benefitted neither the club, and most definitely, the player.

 

[GOBIAS]

The team who were the in the top 1 joint goalscorers out of all 92 league clubs, alongside other top 1 team Man City? (both with 83 goals for)

Yep. To me mate that says they know a goal-scorer when they see one. Is he up to Champ level? We'll see this season I guess.

Ah, goalscoring. Something the Vrentroz era has seemed utterly determined to beat out of Nottingham Forest's core for 3 1/2 years.

Still the division below they were top scorers and where grant scored all those penalties. You may be right but people point at many clubs who are ran correctly in our division and none took a punt on him despite his release being presumably fairly low.

 

[GOBIAS]

Och aye!!

I know she looks overage, but I actually took the picture at a school Halloween do, whilst shouting homophobic, xenophobic and racial slurs at everyone.

In

 

[Matt]

Anybody wanna watch some Carvalho videos?

 

[congo_red_49]

Back on topic, if anyone is interested, I think he’s done a very good job so far this season , in a deeper midfield role, at a level he supposedly wasn’t good enough for. In a team with some areas that need improving.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

Back on topic, if anyone is interested, I think he’s done a very good job so far this season , in a deeper midfield role, at a level he supposedly wasn’t good enough for. In a team with some areas that need improving.

Read a few pieces saying similar.

 

[Kjetil Osvold's Cat]

Read a few pieces saying similar.

I'm wondering Alf, and congo maybe too, if somehow you feel differently about a somewhat lightweight player who can play a bit but isn't an all action midfielder, depending on how much he's cost?

I know Alf for example you felt Scot Gemmill got some unfair stick at times back in the 90s (if I remember correctly what you've said), and you'd not exactly anti-Jorge Grant either. While Carvalho cost £13m rather than coming through the youth team.

I'm not having a go, but just asking does it come down to the money aspect do you think, and expecting more for what has been paid (so it seems less acceptable to be lacking in physical traits, determination or whatever else you could feel Carvalho doesn't have enough of or show enough of - we could add goals and assists to the list too but I do remember in certain seasons at least Scot Gemmill racked up quite a few to be fair, and I suppose it's different in that he played as a central midfielder albeit one who was better with the ball than in getting it back, and sometimes in an attacking kind of 4-1-4-1 like in 93/94)

Even Majewski is different to Carvalho in that respect - it wasn't such a big money transfer. From what I remember Alf you were pretty happy with him overall I think weren't you?

 

[congo_red_49]

I'm wondering Alf, and congo maybe too, if somehow you feel differently about a somewhat lightweight player who can play a bit but isn't an all action midfielder, depending on how much he's cost?

No, I'm leaving cost completely aside - and I wouldn't consider Jorge a lightweight player anymore (although he certainly was when he left us).
What I see with him, is a player who has worked hard on the obvious flaws in his game - building up physical strength to allow him to impose himself on games and working on the defensive side of his game to compliment his more natural creativity.
He now plays in what would effectively be one of the two 'holding midfield' roles for us - albeit in Peterborough's 3-5-2 system - which does have two clear holding midfielders and a more advanced role, the advanced role usually being filled by Sammy Smodicz.
I don't - up to this point - seen anything in Joao to suggest he would work on his game to the same degree.
It would probably be a fairer comparison to put Jorge up against James Garner if we want a comparison to the current Forest team.