Forest Early History - sponsored by I‘m Red Till Dead

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Another indicator that the club formation date was 1865 is given in the speech in the 1875 article below

(The Nottinghamshire Guardian, Friday, April 30th, 1875)

NOTTINGHAM FOREST FOOTBALL CLUB ATHLETIC SPORTS.

(Note: from 1869 for many years, Forest held an annual sports day, which helped to raise money for the club. The event would take place on a Saturday afternoon so that workers could attend after they had finished their work. This particular year 12,000 spectators attended. The following week the club would hold an annual dinner where some prizes were presented to local winners, and hold a meeting. The following is a small extract.)

ANNUAL MEETING

The CHAIRMAN (S. G. Johnson1 Esq.) next proposed “Success to the Forest Football Club,” saying it was the toast of the evening. He then referred to the absence of their anticipated chairman (Mr. Saul Isaac, M.P.), and although he, from his office as Town Clerk, was precluded from taking any part in local politics, yet he could not refrain from saying that he (Mr. Saul Isaac) always devoted himself to the interests of the borough. (Cheers) If there was any Bill before Parliament that affected their interests it was always sent down to his office, and that any suggestions that he might make to Mr. Isaac were sure to meet with his support, and he always endeavoured to carry out any suggestions which he believed might be for the benefit of the borough. (Hear.) He then referred to the pleasure it had afforded himself to have been the winner of some of the prizes on Saturday (the annual Nottingham Forest Football Club Sports Day); and in reference to the suggestion of Mr. Widdowson, as to the Castle scheme, he said that the Corporation had in contemplation to erect not only a gymnasium, but a racket court, and other places of recreation in connection with it. (Cheers.) He then referred to some of the difficulties that were to be met with in the carrying of it out, but believed that they would be overcome in the same way as they were in connection with the Forest Ground. The society had been established in 1865, he said, and sports had been held annually since 1869, and it was a singular coincidence that on every occasion of their holding their sports, they had always had fine weather. He coupled the toast with the name of Mr Revis...


Note: 1 The chairman of the meeting, S. G. Johnson, is Samuel George Johnson, Nottingham Town Clerk and Solicitor

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

I've just uploaded new versions of the Scrapbooks (dated 21.07.2022) for those with access -

More match reports (including last season's), player movements, player and committee member deaths, general stories, etc.

'Our Zoe' has made the pages too with her fantastic charity collection. (I included her in the index to make it easy for her to find herself. )

Enjoy.

 

[forestzoe]

Thanks for the PM, would love to have a read...but where/how do I access it lol. Sorry if I'm.being thick, just finished late shift so a bit groggy

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Thanks for the PM, would love to have a read...but where/how do I access it lol. Sorry if I'm.being thick, just finished late shift so a bit groggy

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

I've PMed you the links again.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

I hadn't realised that there was a small fire in the main stand the season before fire at the Leeds game

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

(West Bridgford Advertiser, Saturday, April 26, 1930)

FOOTBALL TIME RECORDER.

New Clock in Use at Nottingham.​

Spectators at the Nottingham Forest - Preston North End match at the City Ground, Nottingham, on Saturday, saw the new football timing clock in operation for the first time.​

This clock, which has been supplied by the Omega Watch Company, and erected in a prominent position on the score board, has a large dial clearly marked with the 45 minutes and a pointer that leaves no doubt in the mind of the spectator as to the amount of time remaining for play.

The starting and stopping of the clock, which is electrically controlled, is entirely in the hands of the referee, and with the co-operation of the man with the whistle it is possible to allow time allowance for any stoppage for injuries during the match.


Imagine that, nearly 100 years ago, a clock that the referee controls that shows the amount of time left to be played!

 

[Redemption]

I'm trying to imagine by what witchcraft it was electrically controlled in 1930 that didn't involve wires.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

I'm trying to imagine by what witchcraft it was electrically controlled in 1930 that didn't involve wires.

Me too and I can only think that the referee had hypnotised a man, and had him stand behind the scoreboard, compelled to stop and start the clock whenever the referee blew his whistle.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

(Nottingham Journal, Saturday, January 01, 1898)

A POPULAR FORESTER

T. McINNES​

McInnes is now in his sixth season with the Forest club, and being comparatively young as yet he may possibly wear the red shirt for another half-dozen years. This much is certain that he does not intend leaving Nottingham so long as he is able to take his place in first-class football. Rumours that Tommy has set his mind on an early return to his native land have been circulated so freely that it is just as well to contradict them on the player’s own authority. A representative who had a chat with him the other day was assured by McInnes that he is quite happy with Forest, and means to stay here.

During his connection with the “reds” he has developed into a dashing forward. On the left wing, where we have had most experience of him, McInnes has been one of the most attractive men any League team has possessed, and while playing with fair consistency during the seasons he has been with the Forest team, improving naturally from year to year as he gained age, weight, and experience, he rose to such a point of perfection at one part of the 1896-7 season that it could be justly claimed for him that he was the best outside left Scotch forward playing with an English club.

He is a player of varying moods. He has periods of exceeding brilliance. And his form in one match may be entirely different to another. Occasionally he appears lethargic, and then will suddenly electrify spectators by taking the ball past perhaps three opponents with a remarkable burst of speed, making a run that was perhaps never eclipsed during the best days of old-time dribbling, while getting almost to the corner flag he will send the ball across either along the ground or just at a height where a player, coming up, could most easily manipulate it. McInnes’s centres were never of the high and dropping character which makes them more easy for the defence to clear than for the forwards to score from.

Whilst never refusing to face any opponent McInnes never sought personal encounters with either half-back or full back, but delighting to give an exhibition of adroitness in outwitting his opponent he preferred to show his skill in this direction, his pronounced ability leading him at times to indulge in “gallery” play – a little weakness which has not infrequently minimised the effect of previous good work by McInnes.

Like most forwards on the outside he prefers to pass his opponent on the touch-line side, though, as he has proved when playing centre forward or outside right, he is handy with both feet.

Since joining the Forest club McInnes has taught his colleagues a few tricks they never knew before. F. E. Burton, the old Forester, was able to perform some remarkable feats with the ball, but undoubtably McInnes has shown his confreres that it is possible to pass the ball with one or two movements they had hitherto had no experience. Tommy’s speciality is what has been humorously described as a “flying angel” pass – or passing the ball on the volley with the back of his foot when going forward at full speed or when he is unable to get under the ball to use his head and the sphere is dropping behind him. Again he passes the ball behind one foot very neatly.

He is clever at deceiving an opposing half-back, and nearly always succeeds, though the delay in some cases enables another player to get up and nip the ball away from the pass.

His weight and flexibility of ankle would make him a useful man in another position should there be any serious diminution in his pace , but his present splendid condition suggests that he has years of good forward work in him.

While favouring the position of outside left McInnes is willing to adapt himself to his present position on the right, recognising that while he may be as good an outside left as Spouncer the latter cannot play to advantage in any other position than that which he now fills.

Naturally after years of service on the left, Tommy was a little loth to leave it, but that feeling seems to have worn off, and his recent displays at Preston and Derby only prove that he is a real footballer which will shine on whichever wing he is placed. His action in going on the right has got the committee out of a difficulty, and has left the way open for Spouncer, who very highly appreciates the good spirit McInnes is showing. The feeling now existing between the members of the team is most cordial, and not one but will wish McInnes may have a real bumper benefit match next Saturday when Bolton Wanderers come to play the return League match at the City Ground. It will probably be a little surprising to some people to find that McInnes is only twenty-four years of age, but such is the case.

Born at Bowling, in Dumbartonshire, in July , 1873, he started playing football for Clydebank School at the age of 12, and at that time, curiously enough, he occupied the same position as he does today – outside right. Among his schoolfellows he soon made a name, and when 14 he went to play centre forward for Dalmuir Thistle, a junior club near his home. The fame of the young amateur reached England, and at the age of 16 McInnes adopted professionalism and joined the old Newcastle East End team, then for the first time taking permanently to the outside left position.

McInnes has the distinction of being the youngest Scotch professional to come to this country, but Brady was only 17 when he crossed the border.

A season and a half at Tyneside was followed by his return to Scotland, where he played with Clyde for a season, scoring one of the goals which helped his club to beat Queen’s Park in the semi-final of the Glasgow Cup, at which stage Celtic defeated Clyde.

Another honour which fell to him while thus a lad of 18 was his selection for the Inter-League match between the First and Second Divisions of the Scottish League.

His next move was back Into England. His conspicuous ability came to the knowledge of Forest, and Mr. T. G. Howitt brought him over to Nottingham, where he signed for the “reds,” who had now entered the First Division. Tommy's association with Forest practically commenced with their start in Division I. The first League match of the season was at Goodison Park, then came a “friendly" with Lincoln City, and McInnes made first League match in Nottingham, Stoke being the visitors. On that occasion he won good opinions by one of his efforts described at the time as follows: - “McInnes weaved his way through the opposing defence, and scored a clever goal. The cheering was terrific, and McInnes had quite a reception as he walked up the field.” This was indeed a happy opening, and at the end of the season it was said in regard to new players that McInnes and McCracken have proved two gems.

Allsop came to Forest at a critical time, and his pluck and skill in goal worked wonders in the team, who, feeling that they had a reliable man at the back of them, played quite a different game.” At the time when McInnes commenced with Forest only Ritchie and Scott of the present League team were then playing, though McCracken, who at present assists Forest Reserve, was included. McPherson came back from the Hearts before the season was very old, his return being welcomed with great heartiness. Allsop came later in the season. How well have all these players served the Forest club! McPherson. Scott, Ritchie, McCracken. McInnes, and Allsop have been players of rare ability, and, with the exception of popular Peter, all are still found playing in League football, and there are half-backs in the First Division in comparison with whom McCracken would in no way suffer.

Last season McInnes took part in the International trial match between Scots and Anglo-Scots and with anyone but the amateur Lambie to compete with would probably have been selected to oppose England, for he gave one of his best exhibitions.

McInnes has a very good opinion of the Forest team as at present constituted, and thinks the forward rank quite worthy of the excellent defence. A number of willing workers are making every effort to ensure the success of Tommy’s benefit. Quite a lot tickets for the match have been disposed of, and the subscription lists are being added to Liberally. Let us hope that fine weather will prevail for the match, and then McInnes may depend on a reward which will not only be commensurate with his past service but which should inspire him with continued loyalty to the Forest club.


Tom McInnes joined Forest from Clyde at the start of the 1892-3 season and stayed with them until part way through the 1898-99 season when he joined Bristol Rovers.

He played a total of 246 games, approximately 75% in League and FA Cup games. Of the remaining games, one in 6 were United Counties League games and the remainder were friendlies.

A Tom McInnes also played for Notts County around the same time period but it was a different person.

 

[Steve B]

Tom in 1897

 

[Steve B]

And again in 1895

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

As well as being a professional footballer with Forest, Gren Morris also had a coal merchants business.

(The Nottingham Daily Express, Monday, February 13, 1905)

Before that he was an electrical engineer according to the 1901 census.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

(Athletic News, Monday, February 17, 1930)

KICK THAT COST THE CUP.
More Pace Less Skill Football.

A LIFE-TIME IN FOOTBALL –
By A. GRENVILLE MORRIS (In an interview),​

ONE of the greatest personalities Association football has known is A. Grenville Morris, who during his fifteen years as inside left for Nottingham Forest gave lustre to the game.

He played for Wales on 21 occasions, but might have got many more caps had the Forest seen their way to let him go every time he was required

He retired from football in 1913, declining further engagement with the Forest in order that he might secure amateur status as a lawn tennis player, being deeply interested in the game. The Lawn Tennis Association, however, refused his application.

Morris regards present-day football inferior to that of the past, chiefly for the reason that there is not enough good ball control. Insufficient attention, he says, is given to this important point. At the same time points out that the game is faster than it used to be on account of the new offside law, which enables players to lie well up the field and make speedy sprints for goal. Goalkeepers, he says, are better now than ever they were.

Here is his story of his most successful career:

TRIPLE CAP AT 18.​

I started playing football in my native town, Builth, mid-Wales, and occupied a position in the forward line of the second team. When 16 years old I moved to Aberystwyth in order to commence an engineering apprenticeship, and, much to my surprise, in three weeks’ time I found myself in the first eleven.

The next season I played in the Welsh International Trial match, and the following year when I was, therefore, only 18 years old, I appeared in the three International matches against Ireland, Scotland and England,

Having finished my apprenticeship in Aberystwyth I went Into the works of the Great Western Railway Co. at Swindon, and I played football as amateur for the town club for about year. I was persuaded to become professional and I stayed with the Swindon Town nearly two years longer. Joining Nottingham Forest in November 1898, I played for them until 1913.

TENNIS REBUFF.​

I retired after 15 years service in order that I might obtain re-instatement as an amateur and play lawn tennis. The Lawn Tennis Association had passed a rule that no professional in any other sport could play as an amateur, but that application for reinstatement might be made before July, 1913. The Forest offered me further engagement for two or three years, but I was so keen on tennis and getting reinstated that I declined.

The Lawn Tennis Association refused to reinstate me, because I suppose I had been a professional football player too long. I wrote and asked why my application had been refused, receiving a reply to the effect that it had not been the practice of the Association to reinstate men who applied on the eve of their retirement from professionalism.

This was absurd. I know of at least two instances of football players who have obtained reinstatement. There is no justice in a rule like that. If I bad had a bad record I could have understood it. but I never had a black mark.

I was thoroughly disgusted, and decided that I would not go back to football. The Notts Lawn Tennis Association tried for years get the parent body to alter their decision, but all their efforts proved of no avail. About eight years ago, therefore, I took up coaching and can claim to have met with some success.

A FATAL LAPSE.​

During my association with the Forest we twice reached the Cup semi-final. In 1900 we made a draw with Bury, and ought certainly to have won the replay at Bramall-lane. Ten minutes from the end we were leading by two goals to none, and then Bury scored a rather lucky goal.

Half a minute from time one of our players, who was standing about 40 yards from bis own goal, got so excited that he sent the ball straight back for a corner kick when could easily have kicked up the field. The ball was placed well into goal, dropped on the head McLuckie1, and dribbled slowly into the net. Before the game could be restarted time arrived. We were thoroughly disheartened, and In the extra time Bury scored the winning goal. They afterwards carried off the Cup, beating Southampton four goals to none. The trophy would, I think, have been ours had it not been for that unfortunate slip.

A contributing cause to our defeat was also the absence Frank Forman, our centre half-back, who was ill. A totally Inexperienced man who had never even played with the reserve team, and whose only experience was Thursday League football, took Forman’s place2!

In the other semi-final, against Southampton at Tottenham in 1902, we lost.

NOTHING NEW.​

We should have won the League championship one year. Norris, one our defenders, broke his leg, however, in a Cup-tie at Birmingham and we had to rearrange our side.

Arthur Capes was taken out of the forward line and put amongst the half-backs, and this upset our attack. We had been at the top of the League from October to the beginning of April, and we lost our place and the championship through this accident and nothing else.

It became the custom for the Welsh Association to write to the Forest club asking whether it was any use selecting me, and the Forest would reply according to the circumstances. When they were in difficulties, or faced by games they wanted to win, they had to write saying they could not release me, and I thus missed a number of caps.

Wales won the International Championship during the time I was playing. In that yea – 1907 -we drew with England at Fulham 1-1. We ought to have gained the victory because about a minute from time we secured a corner kick which was taken by Meredith.

The ball travelled over the heads of all the other players to me at inside left. I was standing only about a yard from the goal and the goalkeeper was quite out of the way. All I had to do was to touch the ball into the net. What was my amazement and despair to find that Ben Warren held me firmly by the jersey and I could not get my foot to the ball.

The spectators behind the goal could see what took place and shouted for a penalty kick, but the referee, who was right on the other side and had his view obstructed by the other players, saw nothing of the incident and so we got nothing.

That might have lost us the International Championship, but fortunately it did not. It certainly lost the victory.

VIZARD BEST PARTNER.​

The best partner I ever played with was Vizard, of the Bolton Wanderers. He was wonderful. When he got the ball it was his, and an opponent who tried to get it from him had something contend with.

At the present time players regard the ball as if it were red hot, and do their best to part with it as soon as they get it. Apart from being splendid player, Vizard was a splendid partner. He knew what his partner wanted, and he always did exactly what was right. An outside man can a great deal for the advantage of his fellow player on the wing.

We played together for the first time against Ireland about the time he was coming out, and it was remarked at time that played if we had been partners for ten years. We seemed to “get” one another straight away. The understanding was mutual.

Meredith played In the first Trial match for Wales when I did, and I thought he was the finest player I had ever seen. His ball control was marvellous, but then, consider what did in order to make himself proficient. He used to practise with the ball more than players nowadays would dream of. He would dribble it in and out amongst bottles. He was untiring his determination to obtain proficiency.

NOT THEIR LIKE TODAY.​

The failing of present-day forwards is their lack of ball control, and I am certain that they do not get half sufficient training in that direction. You have only to remember Bloomer and the goals he scored. His performances were simply the outcome of ball control and shooting power.

There are no Bloomers, Frank Formans, Needhams, Cromptons, Merediths, Holts, Crabtrees, Lofthouses, or Vizards today.

Look at the Villa teams of the past and their beautiful forward play. Compare them with those of the present. Players make great reputations one year but nothing is heard of them the next year.

I believe there are better goalkeepers today than ever there were. You never see bad one now, but in the past there were many of indifferent standard. On the other hand, the backs are not so good as they were, neither are the half-backs There are not the numbers who stood out in the past.

The forwards used to move along in a line, and much more skill was required than under present conditions. The only thing that makes the game appear faster is the new off-side law. The forwards can now lie well up, and when the ball comes to them they are quickly in front. The ball certainly travels from end to end quicker than formerly, and more opportunities of scoring occur, as the scoring sheets show, but far greater bail craft was displayed in m days than now.

DITCHED!​

Many of my friends will be surprised to hear me say that in my younger days I was fond of charging. I was really vigorous until I was 17 years old, but I found out that it did not pay and that you cannot play the charging game and score goals.

Once while I was at school I played In a game against the headmaster’s team. There was ditch running alongside the touch line and the headmaster, playing at outside right, came in my direction with the ball.

I ran across from the centre field and, making my mind that the only way to get possession was to charge, I rushed him. To my horror, he disappeared in the ditch. My heart was in my mouth until he appeared again covered in mud, but notwithstanding the state he was in he smiled.

“WE ARE SEVEN.”​

During the time I was at Builth I played against a team of the South Wales Borderers. Someone had evidently told them to watch me. They did more. As soon as I got the ball I found that seven of them were following me about. Wherever went the whole seven were on my heels. I never experienced anything so funny in all career. But I could run in those days, and I led them a rare dance.

In the first game I played for Swindon Town - against Now Brompton, I believe - the ground was heavy, and so was the ball. At half-time the score was one goal each, and Just after the restart I headed the ball. I remember no more of the match, but was told afterwards that about three minutes from time said to the inside-right "Where am I?" He replied "What do you mean?” and I said, "I don't know where I am."

He retorted, " You are playing football for Swindon and von have got to try to get the ball In the net."

About half a minute from time the ball came to me, standing about 40 yards from goal as far as I could say. I went right through and scored, and before the ball could be taken to the half-way line time was called. Half an hour must have elapsed before I returned to full consciousness, and it was not until then that I knew that I had won the match.

“WALKING ON AlR.”​

In my first season with the Forest we trained at Skegness for a Cup-tie with Everton. En route to Liverpool had a meal on the train, and at night we all went to a place amusement where we began to feel ill. We passed a terrible night suffering from stomach trouble, the effects of what had eaten. Only those who had partaken the food were affected. Fred Forman, the brother of Frank, and Benbow, who joined us later, did not suffer in any way.

We were dreadfully weak on the field play, but Frank Forman played brilliant game, and scored a beautiful goal which won the match. I shall never forget it; it was likely walking about air.

At the beginning of my career I played centre-forward, and have been in that position for Swindon, the Forest, and Wales, but I preferred inside left, for I found that player got a good deal of knocking about in the centre.

I was in the centre in the notable game the Forest played against Burnley, out which such trouble arose for some of the Lancashire club’s players.

I have idea how many goals I scored. Records of scorers were not kept with such care as now. In one season West and I were the only players who scored any goals for the Forest up to Christmas, while in the season 1902-03 I was the only player In the Forest team who scored for six weeks, my total being 10.

In that season I scored 25 goals out of a total of 29. Goals were hard to get in those days. That total of 25 would represent a great deal more in modern football.

Notes:
1 Jasper McLuckie of Bury
2 Fred Coles was the man that replaced the ill Frank Foreman in the two FA Cup semi-finals against Bury. The first Bury game was his first truly competitive first team game for the club. Prior to the F. A. Cup semi-final he had represented the club in two friendlies and two Bass Charity Vase games.

 

[Cloughie1975]

View attachment 15455

(Athletic News, Monday, February 17, 1930)

KICK THAT COST THE CUP.
More Pace Less Skill Football.

A LIFE-TIME IN FOOTBALL –
By A. GRENVILLE MORRIS (In an interview),​

ONE of the greatest personalities Association football has known is A. Grenville Morris, who during his fifteen years as inside left for Nottingham Forest gave lustre to the game.

He played for Wales on 21 occasions, but might have got many more caps had the Forest seen their way to let him go every time he was required

He retired from football in 1913, declining further engagement with the Forest in order that he might secure amateur status as a lawn tennis player, being deeply interested in the game. The Lawn Tennis Association, however, refused his application.

Morris regards present-day football inferior to that of the past, chiefly for the reason that there is not enough good ball control. Insufficient attention, he says, is given to this important point. At the same time points out that the game is faster than it used to be on account of the new offside law, which enables players to lie well up the field and make speedy sprints for goal. Goalkeepers, he says, are better now than ever they were.

Here is his story of his most successful career:

TRIPLE CAP AT 18.​

I started playing football in my native town, Builth, mid-Wales, and occupied a position in the forward line of the second team. When 16 years old I moved to Aberystwyth in order to commence an engineering apprenticeship, and, much to my surprise, in three weeks’ time I found myself in the first eleven.

The next season I played in the Welsh International Trial match, and the following year when I was, therefore, only 18 years old, I appeared in the three International matches against Ireland, Scotland and England,

Having finished my apprenticeship in Aberystwyth I went Into the works of the Great Western Railway Co. at Swindon, and I played football as amateur for the town club for about year. I was persuaded to become professional and I stayed with the Swindon Town nearly two years longer. Joining Nottingham Forest in November 1898, I played for them until 1913.

TENNIS REBUFF.​

I retired after 15 years service in order that I might obtain re-instatement as an amateur and play lawn tennis. The Lawn Tennis Association had passed a rule that no professional in any other sport could play as an amateur, but that application for reinstatement might be made before July, 1913. The Forest offered me further engagement for two or three years, but I was so keen on tennis and getting reinstated that I declined.

The Lawn Tennis Association refused to reinstate me, because I suppose I had been a professional football player too long. I wrote and asked why my application had been refused, receiving a reply to the effect that it had not been the practice of the Association to reinstate men who applied on the eve of their retirement from professionalism.

This was absurd. I know of at least two instances of football players who have obtained reinstatement. There is no justice in a rule like that. If I bad had a bad record I could have understood it. but I never had a black mark.

I was thoroughly disgusted, and decided that I would not go back to football. The Notts Lawn Tennis Association tried for years get the parent body to alter their decision, but all their efforts proved of no avail. About eight years ago, therefore, I took up coaching and can claim to have met with some success.

A FATAL LAPSE.​

During my association with the Forest we twice reached the Cup semi-final. In 1900 we made a draw with Bury, and ought certainly to have won the replay at Bramall-lane. Ten minutes from the end we were leading by two goals to none, and then Bury scored a rather lucky goal.

Half a minute from time one of our players, who was standing about 40 yards from bis own goal, got so excited that he sent the ball straight back for a corner kick when could easily have kicked up the field. The ball was placed well into goal, dropped on the head McLuckie1, and dribbled slowly into the net. Before the game could be restarted time arrived. We were thoroughly disheartened, and In the extra time Bury scored the winning goal. They afterwards carried off the Cup, beating Southampton four goals to none. The trophy would, I think, have been ours had it not been for that unfortunate slip.

A contributing cause to our defeat was also the absence Frank Forman, our centre half-back, who was ill. A totally Inexperienced man who had never even played with the reserve team, and whose only experience was Thursday League football, took Forman’s place2!

In the other semi-final, against Southampton at Tottenham in 1902, we lost.

NOTHING NEW.​

We should have won the League championship one year. Norris, one our defenders, broke his leg, however, in a Cup-tie at Birmingham and we had to rearrange our side.

Arthur Capes was taken out of the forward line and put amongst the half-backs, and this upset our attack. We had been at the top of the League from October to the beginning of April, and we lost our place and the championship through this accident and nothing else.

It became the custom for the Welsh Association to write to the Forest club asking whether it was any use selecting me, and the Forest would reply according to the circumstances. When they were in difficulties, or faced by games they wanted to win, they had to write saying they could not release me, and I thus missed a number of caps.

Wales won the International Championship during the time I was playing. In that yea – 1907 -we drew with England at Fulham 1-1. We ought to have gained the victory because about a minute from time we secured a corner kick which was taken by Meredith.

The ball travelled over the heads of all the other players to me at inside left. I was standing only about a yard from the goal and the goalkeeper was quite out of the way. All I had to do was to touch the ball into the net. What was my amazement and despair to find that Ben Warren held me firmly by the jersey and I could not get my foot to the ball.

The spectators behind the goal could see what took place and shouted for a penalty kick, but the referee, who was right on the other side and had his view obstructed by the other players, saw nothing of the incident and so we got nothing.

That might have lost us the International Championship, but fortunately it did not. It certainly lost the victory.

VIZARD BEST PARTNER.​

The best partner I ever played with was Vizard, of the Bolton Wanderers. He was wonderful. When he got the ball it was his, and an opponent who tried to get it from him had something contend with.

At the present time players regard the ball as if it were red hot, and do their best to part with it as soon as they get it. Apart from being splendid player, Vizard was a splendid partner. He knew what his partner wanted, and he always did exactly what was right. An outside man can a great deal for the advantage of his fellow player on the wing.

We played together for the first time against Ireland about the time he was coming out, and it was remarked at time that played if we had been partners for ten years. We seemed to “get” one another straight away. The understanding was mutual.

Meredith played In the first Trial match for Wales when I did, and I thought he was the finest player I had ever seen. His ball control was marvellous, but then, consider what did in order to make himself proficient. He used to practise with the ball more than players nowadays would dream of. He would dribble it in and out amongst bottles. He was untiring his determination to obtain proficiency.

NOT THEIR LIKE TODAY.​

The failing of present-day forwards is their lack of ball control, and I am certain that they do not get half sufficient training in that direction. You have only to remember Bloomer and the goals he scored. His performances were simply the outcome of ball control and shooting power.

There are no Bloomers, Frank Formans, Needhams, Cromptons, Merediths, Holts, Crabtrees, Lofthouses, or Vizards today.

Look at the Villa teams of the past and their beautiful forward play. Compare them with those of the present. Players make great reputations one year but nothing is heard of them the next year.

I believe there are better goalkeepers today than ever there were. You never see bad one now, but in the past there were many of indifferent standard. On the other hand, the backs are not so good as they were, neither are the half-backs There are not the numbers who stood out in the past.

The forwards used to move along in a line, and much more skill was required than under present conditions. The only thing that makes the game appear faster is the new off-side law. The forwards can now lie well up, and when the ball comes to them they are quickly in front. The ball certainly travels from end to end quicker than formerly, and more opportunities of scoring occur, as the scoring sheets show, but far greater bail craft was displayed in m days than now.

DITCHED!​

Many of my friends will be surprised to hear me say that in my younger days I was fond of charging. I was really vigorous until I was 17 years old, but I found out that it did not pay and that you cannot play the charging game and score goals.

Once while I was at school I played In a game against the headmaster’s team. There was ditch running alongside the touch line and the headmaster, playing at outside right, came in my direction with the ball.

I ran across from the centre field and, making my mind that the only way to get possession was to charge, I rushed him. To my horror, he disappeared in the ditch. My heart was in my mouth until he appeared again covered in mud, but notwithstanding the state he was in he smiled.

“WE ARE SEVEN.”​

During the time I was at Builth I played against a team of the South Wales Borderers. Someone had evidently told them to watch me. They did more. As soon as I got the ball I found that seven of them were following me about. Wherever went the whole seven were on my heels. I never experienced anything so funny in all career. But I could run in those days, and I led them a rare dance.

In the first game I played for Swindon Town - against Now Brompton, I believe - the ground was heavy, and so was the ball. At half-time the score was one goal each, and Just after the restart I headed the ball. I remember no more of the match, but was told afterwards that about three minutes from time said to the inside-right "Where am I?" He replied "What do you mean?” and I said, "I don't know where I am."

He retorted, " You are playing football for Swindon and von have got to try to get the ball In the net."

About half a minute from time the ball came to me, standing about 40 yards from goal as far as I could say. I went right through and scored, and before the ball could be taken to the half-way line time was called. Half an hour must have elapsed before I returned to full consciousness, and it was not until then that I knew that I had won the match.

“WALKING ON AlR.”​

In my first season with the Forest we trained at Skegness for a Cup-tie with Everton. En route to Liverpool had a meal on the train, and at night we all went to a place amusement where we began to feel ill. We passed a terrible night suffering from stomach trouble, the effects of what had eaten. Only those who had partaken the food were affected. Fred Forman, the brother of Frank, and Benbow, who joined us later, did not suffer in any way.

We were dreadfully weak on the field play, but Frank Forman played brilliant game, and scored a beautiful goal which won the match. I shall never forget it; it was likely walking about air.

At the beginning of my career I played centre-forward, and have been in that position for Swindon, the Forest, and Wales, but I preferred inside left, for I found that player got a good deal of knocking about in the centre.

I was in the centre in the notable game the Forest played against Burnley, out which such trouble arose for some of the Lancashire club’s players.

I have idea how many goals I scored. Records of scorers were not kept with such care as now. In one season West and I were the only players who scored any goals for the Forest up to Christmas, while in the season 1902-03 I was the only player In the Forest team who scored for six weeks, my total being 10.

In that season I scored 25 goals out of a total of 29. Goals were hard to get in those days. That total of 25 would represent a great deal more in modern football.

Notes:
1 Jasper McLuckie of Bury
2 Fred Coles was the man that replaced the ill Fred Foreman in the two FA Cup semi-finals against Bury. The first Bury game was his first truly competitive first team game for the club. Prior to the F. A. Cup semi-final he had represented the club in two friendlies and two Bass Charity Vase games.

Fabulous-interesting that he mentions forwards being able to control a football.
Something Mr.Clough was keen on.

 

[Otis Redding]

I have fond memories of an old boy who lived next door to us in the Meadows in the 60s. He'd followed Forest since before World War 1 and would never waste any opportunity to tell us what a great player Grenville Morris was.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

A very similar piece by Gren Morris for the illustrated Police News.

(Illustrated Police News, Thursday, December 05, 1912)

My Football Experiences.

Being Incidents In the Career of a Welsh International,

By A. GRENVILLE MORRIS, Notts Forest Football Club.

“Specially written for the Illustrated Police News.”​

I wonder how many people who have followed my somewhat lengthy football career know that it was more or less of an accident that I became an Association player at all. While at school at Ellesmere College I, of course, played nothing but Rugby, and although somewhat prejudiced against it the start, having as a boy at home always played Soccer, I at length grew quite fond of the handling code.

On leaving Ellesmere it was first intended that should go on to Newport, and had that idea held good I should certainly not have been a member of the Foresters’ team today, as no opportunity would have been afforded me of perfecting myself in the Association game in that hotbed of Rugby. It was fated however that Newport should not know me, and, making my headquarters at Aberystwyth, I went back to my early love, and have no reason to regret the same.

But here I am going along too fast. I am instructed to write something about my football career and have almost got to the end before I have made fair start. To begin at the very beginning I may say that I was born at Builth, in Breconshire, in 1877, and that I started playing football as soon as I was big enough to kick a ball.

I have always been in the attacking line and as a matter of choice I would sooner play pivot than any other position. I like honest robust charging, and as a youngster well remember in boys’ and masters’ practice match quite upsetting our head on a dreadfully muddy day in a full-blooded charge. As he was not in football attire I was rather fearful that he would think I had done it with malice aforethought, but he was a good old sport, and I was not carpeted.

Although a Builth lad and a very fair player I was not considered good enough play even for the town club juniors, until I went to Aberystwyth. Then played against them and, scoring five goals out of Seven, I received an invitation to play for native town.

At that time Builth had a very hot team, including the brothers Howell and poor Walter Evans, who subsequently played for Aston Villa, and has since joined the great majority, and under their banner I played some grand games and gained much useful experience.

Mv first big game was for Mid-Wales v. Denbigh, and I shall always remember it as it gave my first glimpse of that great wizard, Willie Meredith. He played inside right that day and his wonderful dodging and command of the ball so fascinated me that I could think of nothing else for weeks after. I was only sixteen at the time and two years later played in my first International against Ireland.

After leaving Aberystwyth I joined Swindon as an amateur, and I must say that I was rather roughly used in some of the games. With a view of chasing down the attentions of the opposition I exchanged to inside left in my second season and was also persuaded to sign a professional form, the directors arguing that as I was getting a lot of the kicks I ought to have some of the “ ha’pence.”

Naturally I have played many an exciting game and many a curious one, but the most extraordinary one was when Swindon were meeting New Brompton on a very wet day. Early in the second half I met a very heavy ball with my head, and was so dazed that I did not know what I was doing afterwards.
I just remember asking Daniells, our inside right, what I had to do, and heard him tell me to score a goal when the ball came my way, and away I went for goal without realising what I was doing. I apparently tricked both backs before bundling with the ball into the net, but not until half hour later did I know that I had won the game for my side.

I have had some rare good games with the Foresters, and the best season I ever remember was 1901-2, when we topped the table for twenty-two weeks. I don’t know if there, is anything in “luck,” but the Forest have, always had a bad time against Bury, who have snatched game after game from us just when have been counting our chickens. The year they won the Cup by beating Southampton they beat us in the semi-final after were two up at the interval, and many of our players were thinking how nice the medals would look on their watch chains.

Perhaps the games I look back to with the greatest pride are the Internationals, and my association in a line of which Willie Meredith is a unit always appeals to mv memory.

My luckiest season was 1906-7, as the Forest won the championship of that year, and Wales beat Ireland and Scotland and drew with England, and I had the satisfaction of leading my country when they won the International championship for the first time.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

Tinsley Lindley - Remembrances and Suggested Changes to Football

(Athletic News, Monday, March 17, 1930)

Players Worth £4O a Week.
FAMOUS CORINTHIAN INTERNATIONAL’S FOOTBALL REFORMS
DR. TINSLEY LINDLEY.

An “Athletic News” Life-Time in Football Interview.​

Thirteen times an English International in the golden days of Association football, Dr. Tinsley Lindley, famous centre-forward of the Corinthians and Nottingham Forest, is recognised as one of the players who helped to create the subtleties of Soccer forward play and to make W. N. Cobbold “the Prince of Dribblers.”

A barrister practising on the Midland circuit, Dr, Tinsley Lindley has always been devoted to football, this fascinating story shows, and he has kept in touch with the game.

His frank and constructive criticisms of modern methods are of marked importance. He finds

Ball control poor and shooting as faulty as can be.
He would pay each professional player what he is worth - even up to £40 a week.
He would introduce two referees and amend the penalty-kick law, although he considers that
recent legislation has produced deterioration.

(INTERVIEW BY TRENTSIDER.)

LOOKING back on my career in the football world I sometimes marvel at my own activities (said Dr. Tinsley Lindley).

I yield to none in my admiration of the Association, game, which I played with such zest, and, although I think there has been some deterioration since my playing days, I can still watch a match with the greatest interest.

I learned my football while I was going to the Nottingham High School. I always had a ball with me.

BALL. STREET, WALL.​

As I went through the streets I used to kick it against the wall, and when it returned on the rebound I tapped it back, making progress all the time. That taught me the angle the ball would take, and I became able to judge the exact spot to which it would come.

I became captain of the school team, and when I was a little over 16 years of age I joined Nottingham Forest, playing with some regularity for them for two years. In my first game for the Forest against Wolverhampton at Stafford Road I scored three goals.

Going to Cambridge I secured colours in my first year, and I was captain for two years in 1886-1887. Being elected a member the Corinthians I remained a playing member of that organisation until I retired from football in 1895 or 1896.

My first game with the Corinthians was against Blackburn Rovers, who were then the holders of the F.A. Cup, and we beat them 8-1. In our side were M. J. Rendall, who became headmaster of Winchester, Andy Watson, a Scotsman, W. F. Beardshaw, a Sheffield man, A. Amos, C. Holden White, F. E. Saunders, F. W. Pawson, B. W. Spilsbury, A. J. Miller - the nom-de-plume of Dr. John Smith, the old Queen’s Park centre-forward - W. N. Cobbold, or as Dr. Smith always called him, “the king of dribblers,” and myself.

In the early days of the Corinthians Cambridge players predominated and their style of play was generally adopted. It is still played by the Corinthians of today. It consists of keeping the ball under control on the ground, and passing quickly and always forward the other players while on the move.

CORINTHIANS’ WAY.​

At this early stage of the game there was a good deal of uncertainty with regard to the formation of a side whether there should be six forwards or five. Considerable successes were gained by Cambridge with five forwards and three half-backs Instead of two, and this led to the general adoption of the formation which has existed ever since.

I played my first game against Preston North End in December, 1885. The North End team consisted of: Rose, Howarth, Nick Ross, Robertson, Ferguson, Graham, Gordon, Goodall, Thompson, Dewhurst, and Drummond, and guess who were the linesmen! They were Major W. Sudell and N. L. Jackson, the father of the Corinthians.

North End played the Corinthians game with this difference: they were slightly too clever and elaborated too much, and therefore lost time on the way, the Corinthians being quicker getting from one end to the other. That is as far as my experience goes.

At the same time, North, End were the finest side who ever stepped on to a football field, and they were got together by Major Sudell within two years of the adoption of professionalism.

£3 TO £40 A WEEK​

We played North End in a charity match in London in 1886 or 1887 at the same time that the London Scottish were playing a Rugby game with Blackheath, and that was the very first game ever graced by Royalty. The Prince of Wales, later, of course, King Edward VII., attended, accompanied by his son, the Duke of Clarence.

I have always had a great fondness for professionals, and I always found them to be just as much gentlemen as any other players. Years ago, I expressed my views with regard to the maximum wage clause.

I held then, and I hold now, that if a man is worth £3 a week he should receive it, whilst if he is worth £40 a week he should still receive that sum. To say that he shall not be paid what he is worth is absurd.

Before leaving all reference to the Corinthians, I may point out that in their December tour in 1884 they played six games in one week, there being 20 players on tour. They beat Blackburn Rovers on the Monday 8-1, lost to Darwen on the Tuesday 1-2, drew with Blackburn Olympic on the Wednesday 4-4, beat Sheffield on the Thursday 2-1, lost to Bolton Wanderers on the Friday 0-7, and lost to Preston North End on the Saturday 1-3, whilst the following Monday they lost to Notts County 2-3.

Our defence was rather weak, for we were without the brothers A. M. and P.M. Walters, but amongst those who assisted us was J. A. Dixon, of Notts County and afterwards captain of the Notts county cricket eleven.

Two of the best inside forwards over played with were Fred Dewhurst and John Goodall, both of Preston North End. Both seemed to know exactly what their fellow-players were going to do before it happened. Their intuition was really amazing, and they actually made openings for the man who was running with the ball.

It is often said that the man with the ball should make the opening, but it is just as much the duty of the other forwards to get into position so that they can play up to him.

GAME’S FINER POINTS.​

Along with these two I would bracket the brothers W. F. and R. C. Gosling of the Corinthians and I must record what two powerful backs P.M. and A. M. Walters were.

David Russell, of Preston North End and Nottingham Forest, was the best half-back I ever played against. He seemed always to know what one was going to do, and it was difficult to deceive him. He was quick and had a wonderful knowledge of the finer points of the game.

Two other players I would like refer to are Dennis Hodgetts, of Aston Villa, and Billy Bassett, of West Bromwich Albion. I remember that Nottingham Forest once played West Bromwich Albion in a Cup semi-final at Derby during a snowstorm, and Bassett was so elusive that it was said he hid behind the snowflakes!

That story is rivalled one concerning a game between the Forest and Preston North End. The encounter took place on the old Town ground Nottingham, which was noted for a profuse growth of crocuses every spring. The Forest won, and North End explained their defeat saying that they could not see the ball for crocuses.

Another semi-final in which I played for the Forest at Derby was against Queen’s Park, the Scottish amateurs, and the result was a draw; but when the teams met a second time at Edinburgh the Scotsmen won easily.

ENGLISH RECORD.​

I played In 13 International games - five against Scotland, four against Wales, and four against Ireland. I was captain of the team which defeated Scotland by five goals to none at Glasgow in 1888, that being the biggest victory ever gained by England in these encounters, and the first in the last ten played.

I would not like to say that that was the best team which ever represented England, but Dennis Hodgetts, writing about it afterwards, said that it had the finest forward line.

Perhaps the side which accomplished such a splendid performance will be of interest. It was follows:

W. R.. Moon (Old Westminsters): P. M Walters (Old Carthusians), R. Haworth (Preston North End); J. Holden White (Swifts), J. Allan (Wolverhampton Wanderers), G. Howarth (Accrington), J. Woodhall (West Bromwich Albion), J, Goodall (Preston North End), T. Lindley (Nottingham Forest), F. Dewhurst (Preston North End), and D. Hodgetts (Aston Villa).

I was always ready to accept an invitation to play, and the following will give you some idea of the part I took in the game. I played for-

England.	London and Middlesex.
North and South.	Preston Nort End.
Cambridge and Oxford.	The Notts clubs
The Corinthians.	The Swifts.
Nottinghamshire and Sheffield and District.	The Casuals
	The Crusaders and Gentlemen v. Players

At Rugby football I played for Cambridge, Notts, and Old Leysians.

My Jerseys, you will agree, were of many colours.

In all my games I took the greatest delight. My appearance for Notts County proved costly to the club. Their usual centre-forward, James Oswald, was under suspension, and, being in a difficulty about filling his place, the committee asked me to take it. The game was against Aston Villa, and we succeeded In making a draw.

RUBBING IT IN.​

The Villa were very annoyed and lodged an appeal with the League, and Notts were fined £5 and ordered to have one point deducted. Notts wore dissatisfied with the decision and lodged another appeal, and there was some consternation amongst their officials when their fine was increased to £30 and two points were deducted from their record!

I also played once for Preston North End’s first professional team, and may I say that I was always very fond them.

It is impossible for me to tell how many goals I scored, but I know I played in matches in which plenty were obtained without kicking one myself. I remember playing a game on Wandsworth Common which I appeared for the Swifts against Clapton Rovers, when Mr. Hughes, the chairman of the Swifts, offered to bet me that I would not score.

I hit the bar, the post, and the goalkeeper, but at half-time I had not put the ball through. Playing between E. Bambridge and Dr. Smith, I had not scored ten minutes from the finish, and Mr. Hughes doubled the bet. Then everything went right and I put on five goals. We spent the evening at the Criterion.

MODERN FAULTS.​

In one Oxford and Cambridge match, when I was captain, I went straight through from the kick-off and scored without an Oxford player having touched the ball, and I repeated that performance in a game at Preston. I consider that this should be done more frequently than it Is.

Ball control nowadays is bad, and shooting is as faulty as it can be. Forwards won’t get their knees over the ball. They shoot off the toe-cap instead of off the instep.

Players should be taught the principle of tangents and angles. With a moving ball the players on the wings should have their feet a certain angle, which requires working out, tap it when they receive it, and they would see it go back to the player who dashing through.

From my point of view the changes that have been made in the game have brought about deterioration. The result of playing what is called the W formation is that at least one or two players are often off-side. The forwards should help each other and go ahead together.

TWO REFEREES.​

Another reason for the decline is that, for some reason or other, the backs and half-backs play the wrong game. In my opinion it is the duty the half-back to watch the outside forward and for the back to take the inside man. The reverse action is often seen, and it is a mistaken policy.

In a lecture I gave to the Nottingham Forest club in 1905 I dealt with referees, past, present, and future. Old players, in my opinion, make the best referees, because they do their work in the spirit of the game. No amount of theory can create that splendid breath for football that comes from actual practice.

Another point upon which I feel strongly is that referees should base their decisions on the intention of the act and not the mere consequences of it.

NO PENALTY LINE.​

Then again, I consider that there should be two referees - one for each half the of the field.

I also hold that the penalty line should be abolished, for players should not allowed to know where they can or cannot trip with impunity. I do not consider it right that a player should able to say to himself: “Inside that line I must not be unfair; outside it I can be so if I like."

I would, therefore, do away with the lines and give powers to referees to award penally kicks tor foul play over a much larger area than at present.

WENT TO SLEEP.​

While I was playing Association football I also played Rugby. I got my college colours, and afterwards played for Notts and the Old Leysians.

I also played cricket, and narrowly missed gelling cricket, blue.

Against the Australians in 1893 I appeared in the Oxford and Cambridge team. The tourists kept us in the field all Thursday and Friday and part of Saturday, scoring 843. I remember that afterwards I went to sleep and had to be wakened to bat. We scored 191 and 82 for one wicket, and so the match ended in a draw.

My first cricket match for Notts was against Surrey in 1888, and scored 40 and 7. I also played for Notts against the Australians, and I have recollections of a great catch I made which got rid of Worrall. William Gunn had been placed in the spot where it was supposed Worrall would hit the ball, but instead of doing this the batsman sent it sky high in my direction. I was in a terrible state, but put out my hands and the hall dropped into them and . . . stuck.

 

[valspoodle]

In 1930 when this was written, £40 a week was a princely sum. When I got my first proper job, in 1966 I was paid £10 a week and managed just fine. Though I decided to work in the pub, thinking I might as well get my beer for free.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

It certainly was. I think I have a payslip of my dad's somewhere from the mid 60s and I think it was only £2-3 per week. That's one of the reasons I feel shock when things like toilet rolls go up by 25p (5s.)

 

[valspoodle]

When my Dad went to Korea in the early 50s, he took out a little insurance specially for me. When it matured it was worth £360 and was exactly the right amount of money to pay for the 10% deposit on our house. Only 60 years ago, but shows the rocketing inflation in that time.

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

When my Dad went to Korea in the early 50s, he took out a little insurance specially for me. When it matured it was worth £360 and was exactly the right amount of money to pay for the 10% deposit on our house. Only 60 years ago, but shows the rocketing inflation in that time.

The maturity year would probably be later, but if it was 1960, it would be the equivalent of 9,215.23 today - £360 1960 Equivalent today

 

[I'm Red Till Dead]

(Newark Advertiser, Friday, April 15, 1988)

Hot shots​

WORLD snooker champion Steve Davis took on Nottingham Forest and England football star Neil Webb in two exhibition snooker matches in the conference centre at Center Parcs Holiday Village in Rufford last week.

The snooker ace beat the footballer in both matches, and also beat holidaymaker Mr Zareh Bernardy from Ealing, but lost to another holidaymaker, Mr Peter Salmon of the Wirral.

After the matches, the two sporting stars were given dinner and shown round the village.

 

[Otis Redding]

It certainly was. I think I have a payslip of my dad's somewhere from the mid 60s and I think it was only £2-3 per week. That's one of the reasons I feel shock when things like toilet rolls go up by 25p (5s.)

I left school at 15 in 1964 Nicola. I got a job at Temple Printing close to my home in the Meadows as a trainee compositor where my first wage was £4.7s 6d. (for the record, I stuck that job out for about a year-or-so before moving on).

Even though my old man insisted I pay £1 10s board, unbeknowing to him, my mother only took £1 from me. Being an aspiring young mod at the time, that extra ten-bob in my pocket made a significant difference to my clothes and records budget.