Dr. Evangelos Marinakis and Pie Cannons (sponsored by Carlos)

[StanleyVictorCollywobbles]

If we go down we're losing the majority of our starting 11 and that's just the reality, we'll probably be able to keep hold of players like CHO, Dominguez and Hutchinson but the likes of Williams/Aina/Murillo/Milenkovic/MGW will all have their agents working on a move out of here

The difference between us and other teams that have been relegated and able to retain a lot of their squad is the wages paid. We pay over the odds and the relegation clauses will be massive, most of the players have no real attachment to us that would make it worthwhile going from ~100k a week to ~40k a week just to help us out in the 2nd division

I just hope we have been sensible in contract terms to ensure significant wage drops and no ridiculously low relegation release clauses. but you do wonder what may or may not be in some of these contracts. I’d be surprised if MGW didn’t get a favourable relegation release clause added last summer for instance

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

We always run close to the FFP breadline so if we do get relegated were going to need to find an additional £100m or so in net transfer sales in order to both comply with FFP and give Marinakis the cash flow to continue paying the liabilities.

Couple that with player power and not wanting a dressing room full of players who want out then I think chances of us retaining most of the squad because Marinakis won't budge is folly.

Obvious candidates to go are Murillo, Anderson and MGW but pretty sure the likes of Aina, Milenkovic, Williams, Sangare, Dominguez and Sels will all get offers and depending on the size of them we might struggle to keep.

If we do go down we're probably on a template like this:

Gunn
Williams Savona Blindon Netz
Yates Dominguez
Bakwa Hutchinson CHO
Jesus
​

Subs include Bakwa, Wood, Awoniyi, Jota Silva, etc.

With also about £50m to invest back into the squad.

I look at that and think that's not actually too bad. Defensive unit needs a lot of work but attacking wise it's there or there abouts.

 

[StanleyVictorCollywobbles]

We always run close to the FFP breadline so if we do get relegated were going to need to find an additional £100m or so in net transfer sales in order to both comply with FFP and give Marinakis the cash flow to continue paying the liabilities.

Couple that with player power and not wanting a dressing room full of players who want out then I think chances of us retaining most of the squad because Marinakis won't budge is folly.

Obvious candidates to go are Murillo, Anderson and MGW but pretty sure the likes of Aina, Milenkovic, Williams, Sangare, Dominguez and Sels will all get offers and depending on the size of them we might struggle to keep.

If we do go down we're probably on a template like this:

Gunn
Williams Savona Blindon Netz
Yates Dominguez
Bakwa Hutchinson CHO
Jesus
​

Subs include Bakwa, Wood, Awoniyi, Jota Silva, etc.

With also about £50m to invest back into the squad.

I look at that and think that's not actually too bad. Defensive unit needs a lot of work but attacking wise it's there or there abouts.

id imagine bakwa and McAtee would be trying to get their way out. Navona? young lad with pedigree and no doubt plenty of suitors back in Italy. CHO would likely want to ship out and I’d imagine promoted teams would want to take a punt on him.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

id imagine bakwa and McAtee would be trying to get their way out. Navona? young lad with pedigree and no doubt plenty of suitors back in Italy. CHO would likely want to ship out and I’d imagine promoted teams would want to take a punt on him.

VP was signing McAtee's praises on the radio, saying he's "amazing" and "fantastic", just lacking confidence.

Sounds like the plan is to build round him with VP, not get rid.

 

[Any Time Now]

VP was signing McAtee's praises on the radio, saying he's "amazing" and "fantastic", just lacking confidence.

Sounds like the plan is to build round him with VP, not get rid.

To be honest I find it hard to take much away from his comment, seems like he's just blowing smoke up his arse in a desperate attempt to build his confidence should we need to rely on him over these next 8 games

If he truly believed he was such an amazing fantastic talent he wouldn't be stuck warming the bench seeing the odd 10 minutes here and there in a side that has close to 0 attacking threat

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

To be honest I find it hard to take much away from his comment, seems like he's just blowing smoke up his arse in a desperate attempt to build his confidence should we need to rely on him over these next 8 games

If he truly believed he was such an amazing fantastic talent he wouldn't be stuck warming the bench seeing the odd 10 minutes here and there in a side that has close to 0 attacking threat

I dunno, he sounded quite genuine to me. At least, I hope he was because bullshitting players won't do us any favours in the long run (which we obviously have to assume VP is supposedly here for now).

 

[Any Time Now]

I dunno, he sounded quite genuine to me. At least, I hope he was because bullshitting players won't do us any favours in the long run (which we obviously have to assume VP is supposedly here for now).

I don't think he's necessarily bullshitting him but instead doing his best to make him feel noticed and appreciated without doing it through minutes on the pitch, it can be quite a lonely place when you've spent a season on the bench with multiple managers turning their nose up at you

Just my opinion and I could be wrong, but I think he's just managing a disillusioned player that we might need to depend on at some point

 

[GregorRobertson]

I don't think he's necessarily bullshitting him but instead doing his best to make him feel noticed and appreciated without doing it through minutes on the pitch, it can be quite a lonely place when you've spent a season on the bench with multiple managers turning their nose up at you

Just my opinion and I could be wrong, but I think he's just managing a disillusioned player that we might need to depend on at some point

On Thursday specifically.

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

I don't think he's necessarily bullshitting him but instead doing his best to make him feel noticed and appreciated without doing it through minutes on the pitch, it can be quite a lonely place when you've spent a season on the bench with multiple managers turning their nose up at you

Just my opinion and I could be wrong, but I think he's just managing a disillusioned player that we might need to depend on at some point

It'll certainly be interesting to see how it pans out.

I mean, you've got to wonder what the long-term plan is anyway. I think we all know there won't be much of a long-term plan, but surely someone at the club now is starting to look at these players and think, what do we do with them? Because close season ain't that far away.

And yes we need to know what league we're going to be in first before cementing in plans, but you'd assume that the likes of Gibbs White and Anderson will be off anyway, so somebody's got to step into their boots. And you've got to wonder if VP has been instructed to make McAtee that man.

 

[Any Time Now]

It'll certainly be interesting to see how it pans out.

I mean, you've got to wonder what the long-term plan is anyway. I think we all know there won't be much of a long-term plan, but surely someone at the club now is starting to look at these players and think, what do we do with them? Because close season ain't that far away.

And yes we need to know what league we're going to be in first before cementing in plans, but you'd assume that the likes of Gibbs White and Anderson will be off anyway, so somebody's got to step into their boots. And you've got to wonder if VP has been instructed to make McAtee that man.

If we go down i'm fairly sure he'll be our first choice #10, whether he wants to stick around or not is a different question but I don't think he'll have much choice. Maybe another season in the Championship will do him good

 

[Alf-engelos Mindminackers]

If we go down i'm fairly sure he'll be our first choice #10, whether he wants to stick around or not is a different question but I don't think he'll have much choice. Maybe another season in the Championship will do him good

He can be our new Carvalho.

 

[Any Time Now]

He can be our new Carvalho.

 

[thereds66]

I'd say Marinakis biggest flaw this season was trusting Edu, who has been shown to be a chancer, and someone who is very much out of his depth, and someone who has lucked his way through his post-football career, until he has been found out at Forest (unlucky on us).

But I don't think anyone can say that we didn't need a change last summer, in terms of style and players, we were shocking for the last 10 games or so of last season. the big man trusted Edu, which has cost him massively, everything after that has just been panic decisions, and rushing to do anything he possibly can to strike gold and stop the direction we were heading.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

But I don't think anyone can say that we didn't need a change last summer, in terms of style and players, we were shocking for the last 10 games or so of last season

Speak for yourself. There's enough of us who thought we simply ran out of gas after utilising the same 11 players pretty much the entire season. The narrative that we "got found out" in the last ten games by it's very nature means that it took the wider league 27 games to work out how to neutralise Forest - which is essentially saying the PL is full of managers who don't know what they're doing.

We needed more players yes, for squad depth. What we didn't need to do, and this isn't hindsight, is spend £200m on midgets who look neat on the ball but have no pace, physicality or end product.

 

[thereds66]

Speak for yourself. There's enough of us who thought we simply ran out of gas after utilising the same 11 players pretty much the entire season. The narrative that we "got found out" in the last ten games by it's very nature means that it took the wider league 27 games to work out how to neutralise Forest - which is essentially saying the PL is full of managers who don't know what they're doing.

We needed more players yes, for squad depth. What we didn't need to do, and this isn't hindsight, is spend £200m on midgets who look neat on the ball but have no pace, physicality or end product.

But thats sort of forgetting that we didn't just play one team for 90 minutes every game, I mean thats just rewriting history. We had long stretches of the season where we rotated a lot of our squad (the likes of Hudson-Odoi, Jota, Sangare, Danilo, Dominguez, Sosa, Yates, Neco, Moreno, Toff, Boly, Morato), we had spells last season where they came in and out. So maybe Marniakis didn't buy the 'we ran out of gas' line, and maybe he thought Edu had the answer, he clearly didn't

 

[Captain Sinister]

Theres been some interesting examples of teams going down and approaching it in different ways. Leeds for example didn't sell most of their players and instead loaned them to clubs in the Bundesliga etc. And then integrated them back into the squad. They did sell Rutter and Summerville though and spent 2 years to get back.

Southampton seemed to get the asking price they set for players like Lavia, Dibling and co. Ipswich got the maximum for Hutchinson from us and Delap had a release clause in his move to Chelsea.

If we're being honest i think the Anderson sale is our gold bar, its not going to solve everything however it will cover so much damage that we may be able to spend big even in the Championship (thats if say we sold MGW/Murillo etc).

As i mentioned earlier though, i can't even imagine the Big Man accepting relegation. It would take a huge amount of mea culpa and he ain't the type. Lets hope we never find out how he would actually take it!

It doesn't matter how big EM's ego is.
It doesn't matter there is a "Leeds" model - financially, we are in a different position to Leeds when they were relegated.
Our rolling losses, historically unalterable, will mean without player sales (plural) that we will be in breach of FFP, and will incur a points deduction (no leeway for Forest - we are not Man City).

 

[isaacs]

Might have been posted already but its certainly worth a listen to Purslow (i really think he wants a CEO gig at our gaf judging from his comments over their first few podcasts) discuss the ramifications for each club facing the drop.

Discussion about Forest is around 22 minutes in.

For those who haven't the time he basically says that in comparison to Tottenham and West Ham, we would be in a much more manageable position because we are owned by one man and crucially we have assets to sell to cover the operating and financial losses that relegation would bring. Basically we sell 2 or 3 of our assets and then attack the Championship with the aim of getting straight back up immediately.
Also, crucially, any talk of financing the extension to the WFCG would be absolutely 100% put on hold (same goes for Leeds) with no ifs or buts because we cannot afford to take the losses that we will inevitably take while trying to spend on a massive new project. It will not happen until we get back.

But because the owner is not looking to sell, we're in a much better place than Tottenham or West Ham. Leeds on the other hand have structured their first season back up with one eye on a very possible immediate return to the Championship therefore would be better placed than us, but because they have so many investors, any decision has to be passed through so many people that it is a lot messier than ours where it takes one decision from one man (those that don't trust the Big Man would not look take much comfort in that).

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

But thats sort of forgetting that we didn't just play one team for 90 minutes every game, I mean thats just rewriting history. We had long stretches of the season where we rotated a lot of our squad (the likes of Hudson-Odoi, Jota, Sangare, Danilo, Dominguez, Sosa, Yates, Neco, Moreno, Toff, Boly, Morato), we had spells last season where they came in and out. So maybe Marniakis didn't buy the 'we ran out of gas' line, and maybe he thought Edu had the answer, he clearly didn't

Morato started 6 games. Silva and Danilo started 5 games, Toffolo, Sosa and Boly all started 1 game.

Once Moreno got dropped for Williams we basically had the same starting eleven of:

Sels
Aina Milenkovic Murillo Williams
???? Anderson
Elanga MGW CHO
Wood
​

The question marks were a mix of Dominguez, Yates and then right towards end of season Sangare. 5 minutes for Jota and Morato here and there to close out games was about your lot for the months on end.

No other player not mentioned in that above lineup got any serious minutes after Christmas.

We ran out of gas and we misjudged the issue and spent £200m fixing a problem that didn't need to be fixed. Now we might well get relegated because of it.

 

[isaacs]

It doesn't matter how big EM's ego is.
It doesn't matter there is a "Leeds" model - financially, we are in a different position to Leeds when they were relegated.
Our rolling losses, historically unalterable, will mean without player sales (plural) that we will be in breach of FFP, and will incur a points deduction (no leeway for Forest - we are not Man City).

Nobody is denying the sales of Anderson, Murillo and MGW (maybe, although very unlikely, only 2 of the 3) but i think any talk of us being left with Big T, Yatesy and Omar Richards in an empty dressing room are way way way off the mark because the sales of Anderson and lets say Murillo will clear 130mil+ on its own (swap Murilo for MGW). I'm basically rounding Andersons sale to 80-100million regardless of division btw.

 

[thereds66]

Morato started 6 games. Silva and Danilo started 5 games, Toffolo, Sosa and Boly all started 1 game.

You're still rewriting history if you think we didn't have other players strongly involved with the season, and contributing. But also by the very nature of your argument you're saying that we needed a change, because expecting the same luck this season with a consistent first 11 is unsustainable, also, what you're arguing is exactly the same... because we didn't need to spend £200 mil on dross, which exactly comes down to Marinakis trusting Edu.

Also every team evolves their style every season, its the nature of modern football, we could not play the same way as we did last season, as many pundits have said, we had a team who were performing at the very max for a long period of time, which is unsustainable, and the drop off at the end of the season points to that, and the need for change.

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

You're still rewriting history if you think we didn't have other players strongly involved with the season, and contributing.

I've literally given you the stats which demonstrate the exact opposite.

I don't think we needed a root and branch change like we embarked upon. We needed a left footed left back, an upgrade on Morato as centre half first back-up, an upgrade in the wing positions on both Sosa and Jota, and an upgrade on Taiwo as backup striker, plus one or two players who could cover multiple positions to help with additional game load in Europe. Not a hindsight thing, that was my shopping list in summer.

We did half of that work early doors by bringing in Jesus and Cunha, who have both been good signings in terms of ability and potential vs outlay.

We then descended into absolute farce, opening the purse strings to buy overrated midgets, expensive has beens and players from markets we didn't have much of a scouting footprint in, to play in a system that didn't suit the existing squad. Those decisions to go down that strategic route corresponded neatly with Nuno obviously going to be getting sacked and Ange being lined up, plus Syrianos taking a step down in terms of influence and Federspiel going with Wilson to Newcastle.

 

[Notcher]

Nobody is denying the sales of Anderson, Murillo and MGW (maybe, although very unlikely, only 2 of the 3) but i think any talk of us being left with Big T, Yatesy and Omar Richards in an empty dressing room are way way way off the mark because the sales of Anderson and lets say Murillo will clear 130mil+ on its own (swap Murilo for MGW). I'm basically rounding Andersons sale to 80-100million regardless of division btw.

The problem is mate that many of the players will also want away. The club holds the contracts but player power holds the real cards.

There's no doubt there will be offers for both fullbacks, Sangare will be wanted, Jesus would probably get offers in Europe, Sels would be a decent acquisition for most clubs and so would Dominguez.

Players won't want a 50% pay cut and Championship football with a potential to fall off the radar when they can ultimately play top tier football.

 

[thereds66]

We then descended into absolute farce, opening the purse strings to buy overrated midgets, expensive has beens and players from markets we didn't have much of a scouting footprint in, to play in a system that didn't suit the existing squad. Those decisions to go down that strategic route corresponded neatly with Nuno obviously going to be getting sacked and Ange being lined up, plus Syrianos taking a step down in terms of influence and Federspiel going with Wilson to Newcastle.

As per my first post, I'd say Marinakis biggest flaw this season was trusting Edu.

You say we didn't really need a change from last season, I say we did, end of. (also changing your posts every 5 seconds doesn't help.)

 

[MaxiRobriguez]

You say we didn't really need a change from last season, I say we did, end of.

Without wishing to sound curt, the 'necessity' of change has gone well hasn't it?

 

[thereds66]

Without wishing to sound curt, the 'necessity' of change has gone well hasn't it?

Well you have the luxury of a scenario which doesn't exist... don't you.