Copa America!

Fuzzy Dunlop

A. Trialist
Re: Copa America 2019

Can't see anything else about this but last night Argentina beat Brazil 1-0 in the final of the Copa America 2021.

Messi finally wins an international tournament and is voted player of the tournament, he'd previously lost in 4 separate finals including 2 on penalties. I don't think there's any reason to doubt him being the best around now (or even the best ever) as the only thing really that seemed to be used against him was having never won anything with Argentina.
 

Alf-engelos Mindminackers

The Artiste formally known as "Wanksy"
Re: Copa America 2019

Can't see anything else about this but last night Argentina beat Brazil 1-0 in the final of the Copa America 2021.

Messi finally wins an international tournament and is voted player of the tournament, he'd previously lost in 4 separate finals including 2 on penalties. I don't think there's any reason to doubt him being the best around now (or even the best ever) as the only thing really that seemed to be used against him was having never won anything with Argentina.

Best ever?

QigCRII.gif
 

DapperDan

Steve Chettle
Re: Copa America 2019

For me, yes. Maradona had unbelievable highs in his career but if you look at the sheer numbers Messi has put in over such a long period of time at the highest level then really they don't compare.
Yeah, the longevity of Messi probably pips it. Maradona burnt brighter but shorter.
 

Fuzzy Dunlop

A. Trialist
Re: Copa America 2019

Yeah, the longevity of Messi probably pips it. Maradona burnt brighter but shorter.

Admittedly I'm a bit young to remember Maradona in his pomp and it's difficult to compare eras but I think we've been spoiled by watching possibly the two best players ever over the last 15 years.

It's all subjective obviously but for Messi and Ronaldo to be at the absolute top of the tree for so long doing what they've been doing is unprecedented, in an era where public scrutiny and worldwide attention to any game they're in is at its maximum too. The level of consistency is just insane.
 

adam09

Super Koopa
Re: Copa America 2019

Yeah such different eras and I don’t know too much about Maradonna but he was clearly ahead of his time.

The thing about Messi is he not only excelled individually, he was also part of one of the best teams playing the best football has since then has continued to drag club and country up a notch as he gets older. In an era when teams have put 10 or 11 behind the ball as well.
 
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Francis Benali (on loan)

Guest
Re: Copa America 2019

Pele good. Maradona better. Danny Invincibile.
 

Strummer

Socialismo O Muerte!
LTLF Minion
Re: Copa America 2019

Brazilian Ronaldo > Portuguese Ronaldo
 

Carlos

Massive Member
Re: Copa America 2019

Brazilian Ronaldo > Portuguese Ronaldo
Slightly related, but in my time on this planet my favourite player to watch has been Ronaldinho, he did amazing things with a football and capped it all off by spending the majority of his time on the pitch smiling and enjoying it too.
 

Rzar

Bob McKinlay
Re: Copa America 2019

Both Messi & Ronaldo are miles ahead of anybody simply because they have been so far ahead of every football player for well over a decade.

There has never been that kind of longevity, previously it was always great moments or tournements that defined Maradonna, Brazilian Ronaldo, Ronaldinho as greats.

You can name great moments and tournements of Messi & Ronaldo 15 years apart. There will always be players that match their level, but not for the period of times it's happened. They probably both benefitted being around at the same time as well as they both always want to be the best.
 

Ravi

Upper Decker
Re: Copa America 2019

Three times World Cup winner Pele?

He played in four WCs iirc.
 

Fuzzy Dunlop

A. Trialist
Re: Copa America 2019

Three times World Cup winner Pele?

He played in four WCs iirc.

Pele is obviously one of the greats but it does raise a further question about whether greatness is achieved through things like winning World Cups. There have been some fairly average players over the years who have won World Cups and some absolute greats who haven't (some never even played at one).

Pele was part of two absolutely fantastic sides, and rightly lit up two tournaments in particular as he was a genius but I feel with the World Cup being every four years and there being so many variables involved - who the coach is, who your teammates are, whether you had a bit of luck along the way etc then it's difficult to simply put someone as the best due to the number of World Cups they won. Messi for example had to deal with Maradona as coach in 2010 who picked one player in the squad (Ariel Garce) because he appeared in a dream to him. It's like Gazza being in charge of England. Then in 2014 he was a Higuain poor finish away from winning it.
 
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Francis Benali (on loan)

Guest
Re: Copa America 2019

Impossible to compare Pele, Maradona and Messi, isn't it? Sport changes and moves on.

Given a time machine to put them on the same pitch, Messi would be the better than Pele because he's the best in 2021 and football is played at a faster pace, tactics have improved. Had Messi grown up in the 1950s, he may not have been as good as Pele. Who knows?

Even comparing the trophies and goalscoring records of Messi and Maradona is not fair. Messi played in an era of super clubs for a super club that win 5-0 most weekends and have been almost guaranteed at least a last eight spot in the European Cup. Maradona played in southern Italy where, until he arrived, had never had a club win the title. It's like comparing Clough with Ferguson. Would Messi have been able to win the league with Napoli in the eighties? Who knows?

Messi and Ronaldo have played for teams that were guaranteed big wins on a regular basis and going deep in the European Cup every year even if they weren't there. That has given both a platform to do incredible things and turn on the style that Maradona never had.
 

Ravi

Upper Decker
Re: Copa America 2019

I agree it's hard to compare. The game is faster and tactically and more sophisticated now, but also close to a non contact sport compared to the game in Pele's time. How would Messi cope with being kicked and smashed into over and over again?
 

Alf-engelos Mindminackers

The Artiste formally known as "Wanksy"
Seeing as Messi needed growth hormone treatment between the ages of 10 and 14, I think had he been born at the same time as Pele he'd wouldn't have been anywhere near the player he was tbh.

The treatment was only being developed late 50's, and the National Pituitary Agency established 1960.

His playing ability was spotted at a very early age, but his physical development owes a hell of a lot to science. Science which wasn't around in Pele's early days.
 
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